[Rpm] retransmit cost over cellular

[Rpm] retransmit cost over cellular

[Dave Taht]

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thoughtful piece here:

https://nickvsnetworking.com/mobile-ipv6-tax/

I wonder how much cell data we are billed for is useless retransmits and
timeouts, due to bloat, or just overhead traffic, as this fella points out.

-- 
Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos

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Re: [Rpm] retransmit cost over cellular

[Robert McMahon]

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Power may be more of an issue. Telecom type 2 emissions for cell towers are huge.

Bob

On Sep 17, 2023, 12:12 PM, at 12:12 PM, Dave Taht via Rpm <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>thoughtful piece here:
>
>https://nickvsnetworking.com/mobile-ipv6-tax/
>
>I wonder how much cell data we are billed for is useless retransmits
>and
>timeouts, due to bloat, or just overhead traffic, as this fella points
>out.
>
>--
>Oct 30:
>https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
>Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Rpm mailing list
>Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net
>https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm

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Re: [Rpm] [Bloat] retransmit cost over cellular

[Juliusz Chroboczek]

Hi Dave!

> https://nickvsnetworking.com/mobile-ipv6-tax/

« This means my Android phone consumes 4.5 MB of cellular data in an hour
  while sitting on the desk, with 16,889 packets in/out. »

So even discounting the headers, the phone receives 70 Commodore C64 worth
of data when idle.  Every freaking hour.

« We have 16,889 packets, 6,417,732 bytes in total, minus 97 bytes from
  each gives us 1,638,233 of headers to drop (~1.6MB) giving us a total of
  4.556 MB traffic to/from the phone itself. »

The average packet size is 269 bytes.  Even if we assume that every second
packet is a pure ACK, that's still on the order of just 500 bytes for data
packets.

Conclusions:

1. The amount of data being received is outrageous, which indicates the
   use of JSON or XML to encode the data.  (See RFC 3252.)  (Just kidding,
   please see RFC 8949 instead.)

2. The packet size is small, which indicates the use of a chatty REST-like
   API rather than a streaming protocol.  The use of streaming has been
   known since at least the 1970s, and well-documented since the 1990s.
   For example, both IMAPv4 and Caldav can do streaming synchronisation
   just fine.

3. The « IPv6 tax » could be reduced by 70% if the packets were reasonably
   sized.  By 90% if the application-layer protocol were efficient enough
   to allow delack to trigger.

Conclusion of the conclusions:

4. The « IPv6 tax » is negligible when compared to the JSON/XML/REST tax.

-- Juliusz

Re: [Rpm] [Bloat] retransmit cost over cellular

[David Lang]

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what apps do you have on the phone and what are they configured to update? that 
will make a huge difference.

'idle' probably isn't nearly as passive as you think it is.

David Lang

On Mon, 18 Sep 2023, Juliusz Chroboczek via Bloat wrote:

> Hi Dave!
>
>> https://nickvsnetworking.com/mobile-ipv6-tax/
>
> « This means my Android phone consumes 4.5 MB of cellular data in an hour
>  while sitting on the desk, with 16,889 packets in/out. »
>
> So even discounting the headers, the phone receives 70 Commodore C64 worth
> of data when idle.  Every freaking hour.
>
> « We have 16,889 packets, 6,417,732 bytes in total, minus 97 bytes from
>  each gives us 1,638,233 of headers to drop (~1.6MB) giving us a total of
>  4.556 MB traffic to/from the phone itself. »
>
> The average packet size is 269 bytes.  Even if we assume that every second
> packet is a pure ACK, that's still on the order of just 500 bytes for data
> packets.
>
> Conclusions:
>
> 1. The amount of data being received is outrageous, which indicates the
>   use of JSON or XML to encode the data.  (See RFC 3252.)  (Just kidding,
>   please see RFC 8949 instead.)
>
> 2. The packet size is small, which indicates the use of a chatty REST-like
>   API rather than a streaming protocol.  The use of streaming has been
>   known since at least the 1970s, and well-documented since the 1990s.
>   For example, both IMAPv4 and Caldav can do streaming synchronisation
>   just fine.
>
> 3. The « IPv6 tax » could be reduced by 70% if the packets were reasonably
>   sized.  By 90% if the application-layer protocol were efficient enough
>   to allow delack to trigger.
>
> Conclusion of the conclusions:
>
> 4. The « IPv6 tax » is negligible when compared to the JSON/XML/REST tax.
>
> -- Juliusz
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

Re: [Rpm] [Bloat] retransmit cost over cellular

[Juliusz Chroboczek]

> what apps do you have on the phone and what are they configured to update?
> that will make a huge difference.

It's not about my phone, it's about that of the author of the blog.

> 'idle' probably isn't nearly as passive as you think it is.

My personal phone is almost completely idle when I'm not using it.  In the
last 10 days, I've had access to my laptop, and the phone claims it has
used up 526kB of mobile data, while my provider claims I've used up 210kB.
I suspect almost all of that is for AGPS.

(But then, I'm running LineageOS without Gapps and I only install free
software.  So I'm fairly certain the phone doesn't speak any REST-like
protocols behind my back.)

-- Juliusz