From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (bobcat.rjmcmahon.com [45.33.58.123]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE0013CB37; Tue, 14 Mar 2023 20:11:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.83] (c-69-181-111-171.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [69.181.111.171]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AF9701EEE8; Tue, 14 Mar 2023 17:11:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 bobcat.rjmcmahon.com AF9701EEE8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rjmcmahon.com; s=bobcat; t=1678839061; bh=T6aYx+J6jMGWmbJXsHomSYdjUqHFvoIVQCEgT7UXVTo=; h=In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Date:To:CC:From; b=K3vJ8s+jq5+UR2z7cP4KB7zzfmDLTeBUJsumgysltR2nm1bYdvvpY2vIOBV1uiwCw 9Ofa1uV76HkEZjlRjzoYN8ygfkzIMRAIanW7EgzE2SQ7iw77HJCc9BQgqA5O1R5QJG kvcVUO8FuRJ3AeL6vCkEbHpbJEBmpQu6gqmzmE8Y= In-Reply-To: References: <22C819FA-DDD7-4B9B-8C09-8008D4273287@gmx.de> <5e7fac51071bdbb20837e72e7eedfc7c@rjmcmahon.com> <3f45d2a0b6e46d7b2775fb801e805f93@rjmcmahon.com> <70F71290-C6CB-4D19-8A88-F0F17C0BDDA2@gmx.de> <5e0cd693c4749d128dbb48d6c1129071@rjmcmahon.com> <2ab2983d-6beb-49cb-8c35-e481cbfdc7a3@Spark> <89c55d67-86f0-494d-a09e-c9aeebe46dc0@rjmcmahon.com> <70CBB03C-4394-4A93-BBB5-7449DC1AAF9C@gmx.de> <063359bf-5bf3-4688-852c-a7d81e6b80a3@rjmcmahon.com> <21f2252ff57e60dc52e7b9a6db8ba936@rjmcmahon.com> X-Referenced-Uid: 0000ff89567702d5 Thread-Topic: Re: [Starlink] [LibreQoS] [Bloat] [Rpm] On FiWi X-Blue-Identity: !l=1240&o=43&fo=6941&pl=1034&po=0&qs=PREFIX&f=HTML&m=!%3AODY4NDIxODAtZDYzYS00ZmFiLTk1N2EtZjE0NWVlYzg4ZGQ1%3ASU5CT1g%3D%3AMDAwMGZmODk1Njc3MDJkNQ%3D%3D%3AANSWERED&p=999&q=SHOW X-Is-Generated-Message-Id: true User-Agent: Android MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----DAJSVB1ZJZ1YLAHTDCXIYCIW1TX6G4" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Robert McMahon Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 17:11:00 -0700 To: Bruce Perens CC: dan ,libreqos , Dave Taht via Starlink , Rpm , bloat Message-ID: <8a04de1c-2d47-4226-a1ac-ea3d5e7b7253@rjmcmahon.com> Subject: Re: [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] [Bloat] On FiWi X-BeenThere: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 00:11:03 -0000 ------DAJSVB1ZJZ1YLAHTDCXIYCIW1TX6G4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 This isn't last mile nor mesh=2E It's last meters=2E The AP/STA power asymm= etry shows that a low power STA can reach an AP, but the AP needs to blast = a CTS so every other possible conversation has to halt=2E It's like a perso= n in a large conference room where one person with a megaphone is yelling t= o someone distant (and that person doesn't have a megaphone to respond=2E) = Better if everyone reduced their energy to just enough and get rid of all m= egaphone=2E Reduce AP/STA density which is what drives excessive queuing de= lays=2E The free space loss works in the advantage in this model=2E The tr= ick is structured fiber=2E But to what exactly? The problem with structure= d wiring before was that nobody wanted to plug into a wall jack or nobody w= ants to be on a leash=2E Look up=2E How many led lights are over our head= s in every space? Electric to photon conversion is happening=2E We don't bl= ast illumination anymore, either=2E Semiconductor mfg is changing everythin= g=2E Best to embrace it vs adding another part to Frankenstein=2E Bob G= et BlueMail for Android On Mar 14, 2023, 4:30 PM, at 4:30 PM, Bruce Pere= ns wrote: >Let's remember some of the reasons why a lo= t of wireless-last-mile and >mesh >networking plans have failed to date=2E = > >Most people who hand-wave about wireless _still_ don't understand >Fresn= el >zones=2E >Most don't account for the possibility of multipath=2E >Or th= e hidden transmitter problem=2E >Or absorption=2E >Or noise=2E > >Spread sp= ectrum does not cure all ills=2E You are *trading* bandwidth for >processin= g gain=2E >You also trade digital modulations that reach incredibly low s/n= for >bandwidth=2E >You can only extract so much of your link budget from p= rocessing or >efficient modulation=2E Many modern systems already operate a= t that >point=2E > >All usable spectrum has been allocated at any particula= r time=2E At least >50% >is spent on supporting legacy systems=2E > >Your g= reatest spectrum availability will be at the highest possible >frequency, j= ust because of 1/f=2E There your largest consideration will >be >absorption= =2E > > Thanks > > Bruce > > > >On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 12:30=E2=80= =AFPM rjmcmahon via Starlink < >starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet> wrote: = > >> The design has to be flexible so DIY w/local firewall is fine=2E >> >>= I'll disagree though that early & late majority care about firewalls=2E >>= They want high-quality access that is secure & private=2E Both of these >>= require high skill network engineers on staff=2E DIY is hard here=2E >> In= trusion detection systems, etc=2E are non-trivial=2E The days of >broadcast= >> NFL networks are over=2E >> >> I disagree to with nobody wanting to pay= for quality access to >knowledge >> based networks=2E Not that many years = ago, nobody wanted to pay to >teach >> women to read either=2E Then, nobody= wanted to pay for university=2E I >grew >> up in the latter and figured ou= t that I needed come up with payment >> somehow to develop my brain=2E Othe= rwise, I was screwed=2E >> >> So, if it's a chatGPT, advertising system - s= ure wrong market=2E Free >> shit, even provided by Google, is mostly shit= =2E >> >> Connect to something real without the privacy invasions, no queue= ing, >> etc=2E I think it's worth it in spades despite the idea that we >sh= ouldn't >> invest so people, regardless of gender, etc=2E can learn to read= =2E >> >> Bob >> >> > end users are still going to want their own router/fi= rewall=2E >That's >> > my point, I don't see how you can have that on-prem= firewall while >> > having a remote radio that's useful=2E >> > >> > I wou= ld adamantly oppose anyone I know passing their firewall off >to >> > the u= pstream vendor=2E I run an MSP and I would offer a customer to >> > drop = my services if they were to buy into something like this on >the >> > busin= ess side=2E >> > >> > So I really only see this sort of concept for campus = networks where >> > the end users are 'part' of the entity=2E >> > >> > On = Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 12:14=E2=80=AFPM Robert McMahon >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> It's not discrete routers=2E It's more like = a transceiver=2E WiFi is >> >> already splitting at the MAC for MLO=2E I pe= rceive two choices for >the >> >> split, one at the PHY DAC or, two, a mini= malist 802=2E3 tunneling of >> >> 802=2E11 back to the FiWi head end=2E Use= 802=2E3 to leverage merchant >> >> silicon supporting up to 200 or so RRHs= or even move the baseband >DSP >> >> there=2E I think a split PHY may not = work well but a thorough eng >> >> analysis is still warranted=2E >> >> >> = >> Bob >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Get BlueMail for Android >> >> On Mar 14, 20= 23, at 10:54 AM, dan wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> You co= uld always do it yourself=2E >> >>>> >> >>>> Most people need high skilled= network engineers to provide them >IT >> >>>> services=2E This need is onl= y going to grow and grow=2E We can help >by >> >>>> producing better and si= mpler offerings, be they DIY or by >service >> >>>> providers=2E >> >>>> >>= >>>> Steve Job's almost didn't support the iPhone development >because he= >> >>>> hated "the orifices=2E" Probably time for many of us to revisit >o= ur >> >>>> belief set=2E Does it move the needle, even if imperfectly? >> >= >>> >> >>>> FiWi blows the needle off the gauge by my judgment=2E Who does= it >is >> >>>> secondary=2E >> >>>> >> >>>> Bob >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> most= people are unwilling to pay for those services also lol=2E >> >>> >> >>> I= don't see the paradigm of discreet routers/nat per prem anytime >> >>> soo= n=2E If you subtract that piece of it then we're basically just >> >>> tal= king XGSPON or similar=2E >> ______________________________________________= _ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >> https:/= /lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/starlink >> > > >-- >Bruce Perens K6BP= ------DAJSVB1ZJZ1YLAHTDCXIYCIW1TX6G4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This isn't l= ast mile nor mesh=2E It's last meters=2E The AP/STA power asymmetry shows t= hat a low power STA can reach an AP, but the AP needs to blast a CTS so eve= ry other possible conversation has to halt=2E It's like a person in a large= conference room where one person with a megaphone is yelling to someone di= stant (and that person doesn't have a megaphone to respond=2E) Better if ev= eryone reduced their energy to just enough and get rid of all megaphone=2E = Reduce AP/STA density which is what drives excessive queuing delays=2E
<= br>
The free space loss works in the advantage in t= his model=2E The trick is structured fiber=2E But to what exactly?

<= /div>
The problem with structured wiring before was that = nobody wanted to plug into a wall jack or nobody wants to be on a leash=2E =

Look up=2E How many led lights are over ou= r heads in every space? Electric to photon conversion is happening=2E We do= n't blast illumination anymore, either=2E Semiconductor mfg is changing eve= rything=2E Best to embrace it vs adding another part to Frankenstein=2E
=
Bob



On Mar 14, 2023, at 4:30 PM, Bruce Perens <bruce@perens=2Ecom>= wrote:
Let's remember some of the reasons why a lot of wireless-last-m= ile and mesh networking plans have failed to date=2E

=
Most people who hand-wave about wireless _still_ don't understand = Fresnel zones=2E
Most don't account for the possibility of= multipath=2E
Or the hidden transmitter problem=2E
=
Or absorption=2E
Or noise=2E
Spread spectrum does not cure all ills=2E You are trading bandwidth for processing gain=2E
You also tra= de digital modulations that reach incredibly low s/n for bandwidth=2E
You can only extract so much of your link budget from processin= g or efficient modulation=2E Many modern systems already operate at that po= int=2E

All usable spectrum has been = allocated at any particular time=2E At least 50% is spent on supporting leg= acy systems=2E

Your greatest spectru= m availability will be at the highest possible frequency, just because= of 1/f=2E There your largest consideration will be absorption=2E
=

    Thanks

<= /div>
    Bruce

<= div>

On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 12:30=E2=80=AF= PM rjmcmahon via Starlink < starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet> wrote:
The design has to= be flexible so DIY w/local firewall is fine=2E

I'll disagre= e though that early & late majority care about firewalls=2E
The= y want high-quality access that is secure & private=2E Both of these =
require high skill network engineers on staff=2E DIY is hard here=2E =
Intrusion detection systems, etc=2E are non-trivial=2E The days of = broadcast
NFL networks are over=2E

I disagree to wit= h nobody wanting to pay for quality access to knowledge
based netwo= rks=2E Not that many years ago, nobody wanted to pay to teach
women= to read either=2E Then, nobody wanted to pay for university=2E I grew <= br> up in the latter and figured out that I needed come up with payment =
somehow to develop my brain=2E Otherwise, I was screwed=2E
<= br> So, if it's a chatGPT, advertising system - sure wrong market=2E Free =
shit, even provided by Google, is mostly shit=2E

Conn= ect to something real without the privacy invasions, no queueing,
e= tc=2E I think it's worth it in spades despite the idea that we shouldn't =
invest so people, regardless of gender, etc=2E can learn to read=2E =

Bob

> end users are still going to want the= ir own router/firewall=2E  That's
> my point, I don't see ho= w you can have that on-prem firewall while
> having a remote radi= o that's useful=2E
>
> I would adamantly oppose anyone= I know passing their firewall off to
> the upstream vendor=2E&nb= sp;  I run an MSP and I would offer a customer to
> drop my = services if they were to buy into something like this on the
> bu= siness side=2E
>
> So I really only see this sort of c= oncept for campus networks where
> the end users are 'part' of th= e entity=2E
>
> On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 12:14=E2=80=AF= PM Robert McMahon
> < rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon=2Ecom> wrote:
&= gt;>
>> It's not  discrete routers=2E It's more like = a transceiver=2E WiFi is
>> already splitting at the MAC for = MLO=2E I perceive two choices for the
>> split, one at the PH= Y DAC or, two, a minimalist 802=2E3 tunneling of
>> 802=2E11 = back to the FiWi head end=2E Use 802=2E3 to leverage merchant
>&= gt; silicon supporting up to 200 or so RRHs or even move the baseband DSP =
>> there=2E I think a split PHY may not work well but a thorou= gh eng
>> analysis is still warranted=2E
>> <= br> >> Bob
>>
>>
>>
= >> Get BlueMail for Android
>> On Mar 14, 2023, at 10:54= AM, dan < = dandenson@gmail=2Ecom> wrote:
>>>>
>&g= t;>>  You could always do it yourself=2E
>>>>=
>>>>  Most people need high skilled network engin= eers to provide them IT
>>>> services=2E This need is o= nly going to grow and grow=2E We can help by
>>>> produ= cing better and simpler offerings, be they DIY or by service
>&g= t;>> providers=2E
>>>>
>>>>&nb= sp; Steve Job's almost didn't support the iPhone development because he =
>>>> hated "the orifices=2E" Probably time for many of us = to revisit our
>>>> belief set=2E Does it move the need= le, even if imperfectly?
>>>>
>>>>&n= bsp; FiWi blows the needle off the gauge by my judgment=2E Who does it is =
>>>> secondary=2E
>>>>
>&g= t;>>  Bob
>>>
>>>
>&= gt;> most people are unwilling to pay for those services also lol=2E <= br> >>>
>>> I don't see the paradigm of discreet = routers/nat per prem anytime
>>> soon=2E  If you subtr= act that piece of it then we're basically just
>>> talking = XGSPON or similar=2E
_______________________________________________=
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet=
https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/list= info/starlink

<= br>
--
=
Bruce Perens K6BP
------DAJSVB1ZJZ1YLAHTDCXIYCIW1TX6G4--