From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B78B3B29D; Thu, 20 Oct 2022 05:01:30 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1666256489; bh=NahJu3vjAV9S/tERbz6RMLiPtPv8QI+/JFmPEbbBcQA=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Date:From:To:CC:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=B4azRnxWFix3SZI1ggN4DM4iLwQvPCJJxwzCJWtkvhHG6p/7ObZKSEmSkIMUfy0d8 ptypGmVvmZTD55a0GgBWCRn35dUr3nqTxYdIZNQxWFzTSHE2Q4qrfL/OU3xFAFNw5V wrE1p4kH+KTxuErrbK/SsJtnTiUTKxSn80Gf894g= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([79.234.22.28]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MEFzr-1ov64535Xh-00AHV5; Thu, 20 Oct 2022 11:01:28 +0200 Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2022 11:01:24 +0200 From: Sebastian Moeller To: Sina Khanifar CC: Sina Khanifar , Dave Taht , Cake List , Make-Wifi-fast , Rpm User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: References: <938D9D45-DADA-4291-BD8A-84E4257CEE49@apple.com> <31A8072A-2482-4395-A521-64350035D8DD@gmx.de> Message-ID: <99C2D8FB-E05B-4EFA-8691-6CF3E4530686@gmx.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:nlDZc7lmXmh0Hskj6Wu7MdYNlQ1rwonwMJAdlMVxYtSvFHILxUa lviTD60ybGCUESdsKFIY/UWtzI/mV2sBD8c2bAV0SrUO9wSx8aZ/RjhjEwqXlpByj3FG048 7S4XALbDu1GT+uM/SqZIpbQcEuJ2zEuB3UKU0q4+mi6GmIwkku2kiMvxrGdd/H3gj0pwX5a VSuqpF2FFkyAYvaP81VFw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:+Laf5gUlt74=:untB/Dk7mqYWkJ33XSyu4V FYX6tugqvfmgYajpDEnHMVIOfFps/OXOvAyx2wovivODQC9iAVGcvKPzEVy/ISaYqAriMP+92 lG9ysYNoiYFMePgp3/DlJ3YXOdF6M9V0VqacF0s6EMM6t2+W6YyOquBs4xOvB4IN/PAncVWYs lUYoxJ6vxaFRpYeZxowZhFg0chyrJTopMDfSyvWEGMPpR/egm6IaBvBX/gkMESxXxvVTi7SnJ JJeGPViQdQGwfFN2/LR909baiXf2S+aYnUQdWscSf5rLryKSzGkmLjHNMyzGnRBQIuBzlHAMH Fe+oEypdxnxjhlOf94DjZxulQ/H/Ct/SDseqR85jvNDoy/w4LJHCQzZZyFIVNU0JoyKQYO4NW lNvtNpEOrFwj/K54jFnWrQQucsZcJIYB8FJz7U4jUbIwcmk/j//jGWr62uWTRlIOP5mxJdtuN Oddvn5D7d7jPkNlyvMFEW100IIcyJlz7aNBBn7wxp3jcw6h/ShKMJ9FvzzOVAv0CpD2vfLg0B t7yD8mdTVmTwNzLswDK80Vg4aFELikPhSnNaSVJwV7A5iT72wj0UaWeAYFTNi8lpgYKd1J/cO gGpITY+pZL+dMDO6ZlHc/3SgZikl4BSwV+Z/iR6uC+msvAq+Zmi36JLrNoYZoBFRqSiW02MtR ZNGOBr7zEWdqgL++jvtz4sE9V1lxf+qTms/MmCxDPA9GQFvskkeL048tOHP1pQjws1ln+ADjD raI1ukoEfQY1MbGowqXlmU47aIRUnS3SqttKTh6n5dXYU3LlqjB+j+IWXOmLiPBosTuG2gfg6 c/OYSF0BxF1T+cyNay0nT7Txmo+a4Or6sWMt7NP1jWBrrilZbDzRHudLtRINsH9QGXG+J45nY xXamWWg1bQ3qeIG4AP9Swer4YnlR13PbNUZ8eT4miHy3KwGhkrKrYU7V8MTMsE+H+YV+Oul31 C4yNhK8eQZ06Jr+J2ttah5lCEEQ782wuZG+Pa5vG+YK59mk0jp82lpfkgB1NKaeuaFgrse898 CoZnTMcjByPpAWF9g4An6vMJWG44l2WeRES/5AeayShAVYooV8tftJBiuXRcr/oBtgTLlaPBS bWPzX/KwrStljc7uPbo0Wt+2h1uday8ppMvjdSOS8f6bTBlKwJM0OPlVZ6ghCQ6Wwy+rVi7Gs qcLnwqrClOMm5aJMsOyaWsjLB61SJUiyEgakJ3v89E1ax1sGR1uvFRqURxOit59ofRHtYA3Vt 5wtBUmYU1cTie6AMqziRzOv59SkkznZHhA27f0JD+f4l6LwD5uXjshkrykRVFNMRFuE0uJ2jk X4ngwvyI/f/gXiK0ghTEXpaHy0sonoGzyGngWxQ3PsYT7aBL4DtbX6ELv83LMrMh02/pR72tg bCmsJ9EL++ugmDPYA4Nt4vk5PQH9Ztzhv79p0tqqeAZHyIpGEePCjpymxHuPXSNENaLl2ynuS sFUZ/VkXrbgVpKzbplabmOwn6otvVmfsTE/yC8tcHJRLXG1ZxeBGXa3nOZT7B/vpuNijNjchI tiTqW/x2CJIHJCnU+nS3dJv08BCtFpKC/kqrL3OUw0G0O Subject: Re: [Rpm] [Bloat] A quick report from the WISPA conference X-BeenThere: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2022 09:01:31 -0000 Hi Sina, On 20 October 2022 07:15:47 CEST, Sina Khanifar wrot= e: >Hi Sebastian, > >>=20 >> [SM] Just an observation, using Safari I see large maximal delays (like= a >> small group of samples far out to the right of the bulk) for both down- >> and upload that essentially disappear when I switch to firefox=2E Now I= tend >> to have a ton of tabs open in Safari while I only open firefox for >> dedicated use-cases with a few tabs at most, so I do not intend to thro= w >> shade on Safari here; my point is more browsers can and do affect the >> reported latency numbers, of you want to be able to test this, maybe as= k >> users to use the OS browser (safari, edge, konqueror ;) ) as well as >> firefox and chrome so you can directly compare across browsers? >>=20 > >I believe this is because we use the WebTiming APIs to get a more accurat= e latency numbers, but the API isn't fully supported on Safari=2E As such, = latency measurements in Safari are much less accurate than in Firefox and C= hrome=2E > >>=20 >> traceroute/mtr albeit not sure how well this approach works from inside >> the browser, can you e=2Eg=2E control TTL and do you receive error mess= ages >> via ICMP? >>=20 > >Unfortunately traceroutes via the browser don't really work :(=2E And I d= on't believe we can control TTL or see ICMP error messages=C2=A0either, tho= ugh I haven't dug into this very deeply=2E > >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Over in the OpenWrt forum we often see that server performance with >> iperf2/3 or netperf on a router is not all that representative for its >> routing performance=2E What do you expect to deduce from upload/downloa= d to >> the router? (I might misunderstand your point by a mile, if so please >> elaborate) >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 > >The goal would be to test the "local" latency, throughput, and bufferbloa= t between the user's device and the router, and then compare this with the = latency, throughput, and bufferbloat when DL/ULing to a remote server=2E > >This would reveal whether the dominant source of increase in latency unde= r load is=C2=A0at the router's WAN interface or somewhere between the route= r and the user (e=2Eg=2E WiFi, ethernet, powerline, Moca devices, PtP conne= ctions, etc)=2E > >Being able to test the user-to-router leg of the connection would be help= ful more broadly beyond just bufferbloat=2E=C2=A0I often want to diagnose w= hether my connection issues or speed drops are happening due to an issue wi= th my modem (and more generally the WAN connection) or if it's an issue wit= h my wifi connection=2E > >I guess I don't quite understand this part though: "iperf2/3 or netperf o= n a router is not all that representative for its routing performance=2E" W= hat exactly do you mean here? [SM] IIRC some router SoC allow higher routing throughput than they can si= nk or source bulk traffic with iperf=2E This is especially pronounced in ro= uters that use soft- and especially hardware acceleration and where the acc= ess speed is already beyond what the CPU can deliver on its own, iperf bein= g not accelerated will tend to show throughput below the routing capacity m= aking interpretation of problems somewhat hard=2E IIUC similar issues arise= for big iron routers that pair a potent routing ASIC with a somewhat measl= y CPU, all task that get relegated to the CPU make the router appear much s= lower=2E I guess you would need a second iperf server in your network and configure= your router such that it has to route packets between server and client to= get an idea what routing limits your router actually has=2E And even that = is somewhat incomplete if say the ISP uses additional costly layers like PP= PoE on the access ling that the router needs to terminate=2E Regards Sebastian > >>=20 >> =E2=80=8BMost recent discussion moved over to https://forum=2Eopenwrt= =2Eorg/t/cake-w-adaptive-bandwidth/135379 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 > >Thanks! I have a lot of catching up to do on that thread, and some of it = is definitely above my pay grade :)=2E > >>=20 >> =E2=80=8B I think this ideally would be solved at the 3GPPP level >>=20 >>=20 > >Agreed=2E I wonder if there's anything we can do to encourage them to pay= attention to this=2E > >Best regards, > >Sina=2E > >On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 12:04 PM, Sebastian Moeller < moeller0@gmx=2Ede >= wrote: > >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Hi Sina, >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On 18 October 2022 19:17:16 CEST, Sina Khanifar via Bloat < bloat@ list= s=2E bufferbloat=2E >> net ( bloat@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet ) > wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> I can't help but wonder tho=2E=2E=2E are you collecting any statistic= s, over >>>> time, as to how much better the problem is getting? >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> We are collecting anonymized=C2=A0data, but we haven't analyzed it yet= =2E If we >>> get a bit of time we'll look at that hopefully=2E >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> [SM] Just an observation, using Safari I see large maximal delays (like= a >> small group of samples far out to the right of the bulk) for both down- >> and upload that essentially disappear when I switch to firefox=2E Now I= tend >> to have a ton of tabs open in Safari while I only open firefox for >> dedicated use-cases with a few tabs at most, so I do not intend to thro= w >> shade on Safari here; my point is more browsers can and do affect the >> reported latency numbers, of you want to be able to test this, maybe as= k >> users to use the OS browser (safari, edge, konqueror ;) ) as well as >> firefox and chrome so you can directly compare across browsers? >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> And any chance they could do something similar explaining wifi? >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> I'm actually not exactly sure what mitigations exist for WiFi at the >>> moment - is there something I can read? >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On this note: when we were building our test one of the things we real= ly >>> wished existed was a standardized way to test latency and throughput t= o >>> routers=2E >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> [SM] traceroute/mtr albeit not sure how well this approach works from >> inside the browser, can you e=2Eg=2E control TTL and do you receive err= or >> messages via ICMP? >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> It would be super helpful if there was a standard in consumer routers= =C2=A0that >> allowed users to both ping and fetch 0kB fils from their routers, and a= lso >> run download/upload tests=2E >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> [SM] I think I see where you are coming from here=2E Over in the OpenWr= t >> forum we often see that server performance with iperf2/3 or netperf on = a >> router is not all that representative for its routing performance=2E Wh= at do >> you expect to deduce from upload/download to the router? (I might >> misunderstand your point by a mile, if so please elaborate) >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Regards >> Sebastian >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> I think one more wispa conference will be a clean sweep of everyone i= n the >>>> fixed wireless market to not only adopt these algorithms for plan >>>> enforcement, but even more directly on the radios and more CPE=2E >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> T-Mobile has signed up 1m+ people to their new Home Internet over 5G, = and >>> all of them have really meaningful bufferbloat issues=2E I've been poi= nting >>> folks who reach out to this thread ( https:/ / forum=2E openwrt=2E org= / t/ cake-w-adaptive-bandwidth-historic/ >>> 108848 ( >>> https://forum=2Eopenwrt=2Eorg/t/cake-w-adaptive-bandwidth-historic/108= 848 ) ) >>> about cake-autorate and sqm-autorate, but ideally it would be fixed at= a >>> network level, just not sure how to apply pressure (I'm in contact wit= h >>> the T-Mobile Home Internet team, but I think this is above their heads= )=2E >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 8:15 PM, Dave Taht < dave=2E taht@ gmail=2E co= m ( >>> dave=2Etaht@gmail=2Ecom ) > wrote: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> On Mon, Oct 17 , 2022 at 7:51 PM Sina Khanifar < sina@ waveform=2E co= m ( sina@ >>>> waveform=2E com ( sina@waveform=2Ecom ) ) > wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Positive or negative, I can claim a bit of credit for this video :)= =2E We've >>>>> been working with LTT on a few projects and we pitched them on doing >>>>> something around bufferbloat=2E We've seen more traffic to our Wavef= orn test >>>>> than ever before, which has been fun! >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Thank you=2E Great job with that video! And waveform has become the g= oto >>>> site for many now=2E >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> I can't help but wonder tho=2E=2E=2E are you collecting any statistic= s, over >>>> time, as to how much better the problem is getting? >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> And any chance they could do something similar explaining wifi? >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> =2E=2E=2E >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> I was just at WISPA conference week before last=2E Preseem's booth >>>> (fq_codel) was always packed=2E Vilo living had put cake in their wif= i 6 >>>> product=2E A >>>> keynote speaker had deployed it and talked about it with waveform res= ults >>>> on the big screen (2k people there)=2E A large wireless vendor demo'd >>>> privately to me their flent results before/after cake on their next-g= en >>>> radios=2E=2E=2E and people dissed tarana without me prompting for the= ir bad >>>> bufferbloat=2E=2E=2E and the best thing of all that happened to me wa= s=2E=2E=2E >>>> besides getting a hug from a young lady (megan) who'd salvaged her >>>> schooling in alaska using sqm - I walked up to the paraqum booth >>>> (another large QoE middlebox maker centered more in india) and asked= =2E >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> "So=2E=2E=2E do y'all have fq_codel yet?" >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> And they smiled and said: "No, we have something better=2E=2E=2E we'v= e got >>>> cake=2E" >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> "Cake? What's that?" - I said, innocently=2E >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> They then stepped me through their 200Gbps (!!) product, which uses a >>>> bunch of offloads, and can track rtt down to a ms with the intel ethe= rnet >>>> card they were using=2E They'd modifed cake to provide 16 (?) levels = of >>>> service, and were running under dpdk (I am not sure if cake was)=2E I= t was a >>>> great, convincing pitch=2E=2E=2E >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> =2E=2E=2E then I told 'em who I was=2E There's a video of the in-both= concert >>>> after=2E >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> =2E=2E=2E >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> The downside to me (and the subject of my talk) was that in nearly ev= ery >>>> person I talked to, fq_codel was viewed as a means to better subscrib= er >>>> bandwidth plan enforcement (which is admittedly the market that prese= em >>>> pioneered) and it was not understood that I'd got involved in this wh= ole >>>> thing because I'd wanted an algorithm to deal with "rain fade", runni= ng >>>> directly on the radios=2E People wanted to use the statistics on the = radios >>>> to drive the plan enforcement better >>>> (which is an ok approach, I guess), and for 10+ I'd been whinging abo= ut >>>> the=2E=2E=2E physics=2E >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> So I ranted about rfc7567 a lot and begged people now putting routerO= S >>>> 7=2E2 and later out there (mikrotik is huge in this market), to kill = their >>>> fifos and sfqs at the native rates of the interfaces=2E=2E=2E and wat= ch their >>>> network improve that way also=2E >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> I think one more wispa conference will be a clean sweep of everyone i= n the >>>> fixed wireless market to not only adopt these algorithms for plan >>>> enforcement, but even more directly on the radios and more CPE=2E >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> I also picked up enough consulting business to keep me busy the rest = of >>>> this year, and possibly more than I can handle (anybody looking?) >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> I wonder what will happen at a fiber conference? >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> On Mon, Oct 17 , 2022 at 7:45 PM Dave Taht via Bloat < bloat@ lists= =2E >>>>> bufferbloat=2E net ( bloat@ lists=2E bufferbloat=2E net ( >>>>> bloat@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet ) ) > wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Mon, Oct 17 , 2022 at 5:02 PM Stuart Cheshire < cheshire@ apple= =2E com ( cheshire@ >>>>>> apple=2E com ( cheshire@apple=2Ecom ) ) > wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> On 9 Oct 2022 , at 06:14, Dave Taht via Make-wifi-fast < make-wifi= -fast@ >>>>>>> lists=2E bufferbloat=2E net ( make-wifi-fast@ lists=2E bufferbloat= =2E net ( >>>>>>> make-wifi-fast@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet ) ) > wrote: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> This was so massively well done, I cried=2E Does anyone know how = to get in >>>>>>>> touch with the ifxit folk? >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> https:/ / www=2E youtube=2E com/ watch?v=3DUICh3ScfNWI ( https:/ = / www=2E youtube=2E >>>>>>>> com/ watch?v=3DUICh3ScfNWI ( https://www=2Eyoutube=2Ecom/watch?v= =3DUICh3ScfNWI ) ) >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> I=E2=80=99m surprised that you liked this video=2E It seems to me = that it repeats >>>>>>> all the standard misinformation=2E The analogy they use is the sta= ndard >>>>>>> terrible example of waiting in a long line at a grocery store, and= the >>>>>>> =E2=80=9Csolution=E2=80=9D is letting certain traffic =E2=80=9Cjum= p the line, angering everyone >>>>>>> behind them=E2=80=9D=2E >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Accuracy be damned=2E The analogy to common experience resonates mo= re=2E >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Some quotes from the video: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> it would be so much more efficient for them to let you skip the l= ine and >>>>>>>> just check out, especially since you=E2=80=99re in a hurry, but t= hey=E2=80=99re rudely >>>>>>>> refusing >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I think the person with the cheetos pulling out a gun and shooting >>>>>> everyone in front of him (AQM) would not go down well=2E >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> to go back to our grocery store analogy this would be like if a w= orker saw >>>>>>>> you standing at the back =2E=2E=2E and either let you skip to the= front of the >>>>>>>> line or opens up an express lane just for you >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Actually that analogy is fairly close to fair queuing=2E The multip= le >>>>>> checker analogy is one of the most common analogies in queue theory >>>>>> itself=2E >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> The video describes the problem of bufferbloat, and then describes= the >>>>>>> same failed solution that hasn=E2=80=99t worked for the last three= decades=2E >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Hmm? It establishes the scenario, explains the problem *quickly*, d= isses >>>>>> gamer routers for not getting it right=2E=2E *points to an accurate= test*, and >>>>>> then to the ideas and products that *actually work* with "smart que= ueing", >>>>>> with a screenshot of the most common >>>>>> (eero's optimize for gaming and videoconferencing), and fq_codel an= d cake >>>>>> *by name*, and points folk at the best known solution available, op= enwrt=2E >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Bing, baddabang, boom=2E Also the comments were revealing=2E A good= ly >>>>>> percentage already knew the problem, more than a few were inspired = to take >>>>>> the test, >>>>>> there was a whole bunch of "Aha!" success stories and 360k views, w= hich is >>>>>> more people than we've ever been able to reach in for example, a na= nog >>>>>> conference=2E >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I loved that folk taking the test actually had quite a few A result= s, >>>>>> without having had to do anything=2E At least some ISPs are getting= it more >>>>>> right now! >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> At this point I think gamers in particular know what "brands" we've= tried >>>>>> to establish - "Smart queues", "SQM", "OpenWrt", fq_codel and now "= cake" >>>>>> are "good" things to have, and are stimulating demand by asking for= them, >>>>>> It's certainly working out better and better for evenroute, firewal= la, >>>>>> ubnt and others, and I saw an uptick in questions about this on var= ious >>>>>> user forums=2E >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I even like that there's a backlash now of people saying "fixing >>>>>> bufferbloat doesn't solve everything" - >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Describing the obvious simple-minded (wrong) solution that any nor= mal >>>>>>> person would think of based on their personal human experience wai= ting in >>>>>>> grocery stores and airports, is not describing the solution to >>>>>>> bufferbloat=2E The solution to bufferbloat is not that if you are = privileged >>>>>>> then you get to =E2=80=9Cskip to the front of the line=E2=80=9D=2E= The solution to >>>>>>> bufferbloat is that there is no line! >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I like the idea of a guru floating above a grocery cart with a bett= er >>>>>> string of explanations, explaining >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> - "no, grasshopper, the solution to bufferbloat is no line=2E=2E=2E= at all"=2E >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> With grocery stores and airports people=E2=80=99s arrivals are ind= ependent and not >>>>>>> controlled=2E There is no way for a grocery store or airport to ge= nerate >>>>>>> backpressure to tell people to wait at home when a queue begins to= form=2E >>>>>>> The key to solving bufferbloat is generating timely backpressure t= o >>>>>>> prevent the queue forming in the first place, not accepting a huge= queue >>>>>>> and then deciding who deserves special treatment to get better ser= vice >>>>>>> than all the other peons who still have to wait in a long queue, j= ust like >>>>>>> before=2E >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I am not huge on the word "backpressure" here=2E Needs to signal th= e other >>>>>> side to slow down, is more accurate=2E So might say timely signalli= ng rather >>>>>> than timely backpressure? >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Other feedback I got was that the video was too smarmy (I agree), >>>>>> different audiences than gamers need different forms of outreach=2E= =2E=2E >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> but to me, winning the gamers has always been one of the most impor= tant >>>>>> things, as they make a lot of buying decisions, and they benefit th= e most >>>>>> for >>>>>> fq and packet prioritization as we do today in gamer routers and in= cake + >>>>>> qosify=2E >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> maybe that gets in the way of more serious markets=2E Certainly I w= ould like >>>>>> another video explaining what goes wrong with videoconferencing=2E >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Stuart Cheshire >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> -- >>>>>> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: = https:/ >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> / www=2E linkedin=2E com/ posts/ >>>>>> dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz >>>>>> ( >>>>>> https:/ / www=2E linkedin=2E com/ posts/ dtaht_the-mushroom-song-ac= tivity-6981366665607352320-FXtz >>>>>> ( >>>>>> https://www=2Elinkedin=2Ecom/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity= -6981366665607352320-FXtz >>>>>> ) >>>>>> ) Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Bloat mailing list >>>>>> Bloat@ lists=2E bufferbloat=2E net ( Bloat@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Ene= t ) https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/bloat >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> -- >>>> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: ht= tps:/ >>>>=20 >>>> / www=2E linkedin=2E com/ posts/ >>>> dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz >>>> ( >>>> https:/ / www=2E linkedin=2E com/ posts/ dtaht_the-mushroom-song-acti= vity-6981366665607352320-FXtz >>>> ( >>>> https://www=2Elinkedin=2Ecom/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6= 981366665607352320-FXtz >>>> ) >>>> ) Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> -- >> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity= =2E >>=20 >>=20 >> --=20 Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E