From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 27F1E3B29E; Tue, 18 Oct 2022 14:20:21 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1666117217; bh=2P8j7VSc7rfpnTLi/lF+8m5fr8EOphz6jNCsOkyCbL0=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Date:From:To:CC:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=d33d6N9eaolVq9z25R8J5mTln0EAZBARcSwQW9bnjbQrMDEimDsXp5J4LzSK6xGoQ ufSseU2ZOxIhJzEpe+Le4KR9WRhXx0mV3PQlJyyBy9i+eS1UrINQD+IuuJ0h8GxHD9 MlrXS9T1ndxNmLcEyBiGwwCTnwCLa+lhHCpvAfEM= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([79.234.22.28]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MAfYm-1orPhY2pMO-00B0Ev; Tue, 18 Oct 2022 20:20:16 +0200 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 20:19:37 +0200 From: Sebastian Moeller To: Bob McMahon , Bob McMahon via Rpm , David Lang CC: Rpm , Cake List , Make-Wifi-fast , bloat User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: References: <938D9D45-DADA-4291-BD8A-84E4257CEE49@apple.com> <6710sq51-1151-s739-qq87-0r5264qrs9q8@ynat.uz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:SD3CvkS5XNsHxqzbmjDUwHz2ORF93wDa0N7A5Sfhj4pPPHvIQjU uBDPqdlbsHi5yFpv1ikM59q3Heq2UCf2jhHZ1u4sRgikjCEh0FSnlfFtEj8Vq4lB2vA6Hb5 Y0YD6Ltt9pS57FkoRuoJ2fpoPKiMG3iXc3BUr76ZPh7NJ+qswJS8GFYfvAIso8DYtAC5muq BSdZcGnc9Ly3928hP8KPw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:iameAAVav7Q=:B/eELlaluTCjeiOTQOgOVU rG54t7TXfb+inKeKQSsqJqdeCArOvB2xMpLyflZYVLgkOSe5Q0rBa5QodYkmQ0JxHhvY0RCBp na8lJopfasZv2qKc3aWZEyWhqjw7eIk/nhVzml7uMVZexIyMqncr2IFAVfgW74ZoPXEUZpsLb C55588JjsKOgPdpr5hxNI1cWfMWjlI8LEQ3GNsdvFF23+Fcyu9WXhyT098Ar7jcE3Jh94XrKg TQN8NyaqsVL5fEjwKiC68g4TA7IyWfgVsJhxQA1Y3uJSJVO+5JclifBMKcOI7aEymnWYVQB8f FzpGapB0HnuB+y0/zo/A8eT1CsFF+ZfrJ7vJ/Jnc/oslTTN6A2TeAawHueG6OadxQ1hWeNQWM YMk+y4CzK3zzvGqD1HKROOE3Va6bUG0+rm3ZyOGiz4jTmLoeevhqUK/ABh3r13x5MkMKcWYR4 ZUEOO7ZLGeD9e7xp6j1knkgl+wpBE6V2PFiyThQr0I+7QRW/tNm/LHMONn4aC5dGhbA2Tq/s1 U+a3YoLgkMPBHgKuwX3TPUUuoBTKPxLyQG9qUyyn6PJ4OiyxtbPyLDkfvrMosM+UEOCE7elZI veAyBv8/wXqcmqM+/tWbl63cBp5qpHSlS9xndRhwMUhRPCJXamRO/mgEI9b5siAU4v5pnpruM RTeXf06DhkxL/vx8zVb1EcBkTou4FxRFpIbXToS7+/Vpt6ynl7g//fXj4HxGHCqYUy1cRS+u4 OFFnIUloJLM+tphf0453wncB+zzuO3VuBj68uGDKgi+FIO+eQFVuOha7hvU1OHmhs4IsXIl7U z0BKTn6fZPS/HkJHN9gRLpKbZjRbBssigE4QqNilLfkjtd00bjaHWgKmDCvyYFZH41SUILPuo 07/w9aVu7ta/K+PAXlbczy9w2Hi54n1IIQV728L1rBLCE3p/Y+Fc7TtUzFewKm03GX0rbGBQ8 0SdSawT4vpZveAiCL+4tiO3v3JXLx+/qrFtT/W6vcwM78pWx2ZiNGX2nD/iDq+7WWEKokGS4+ gxXd4ILYqKpdLeOK98T8UQ5x3xyY6s2RtKqxkCvIAst6DXPfXmWIZbA6me/E9GQzQuX9dH/ub XIo9odKa/0A313P4PHK7Ik7e90qbFeBYe7/0jjem5vxn/iZO0iFM3D6XPeA7HdN1V9VZ7dgTi Iqpu4/3pFRB+F+cEULlhfwtkduCBYGpwVJLnrd2XMI5ovhldDV89VAQ2xz1eXjLdGM5QYe4P7 Vhu/6K4u/0RdarVvXyNORGarwdG6F83acOBGT37M9pMWVTXPscnuLG+rtR7Chn4kHF5Wssq0Z 076KBOfkRsfhMP652XlfiAVvromkL2oEXYPL+ggegHQkdWR/yEShmnv5AfC0aMmR+2vXWWvQN Ass5/BwwpALfJ3pwtiBs+XCJ7pTpiBfedM4mf1Y8n21oo2jJQJGrZQc5OI6kwUNeS2BgQ3z2W OjS4KV8GVHRvN+U9TNXKmRSzDr+GJr0KMZueo7wSGzMgDWzHKBLZE3nRgi4lTl2KASiqe9b3S bYvlqYFPKew5OTzNbSa0Lgp2vp6b5jZAF8UtzScsXvepA Subject: Re: [Rpm] [Make-wifi-fast] [Bloat] The most wonderful video ever about bufferbloat X-BeenThere: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 18:20:21 -0000 Hi Bob, On 18 October 2022 19:03:21 CEST, Bob McMahon via Rpm wrote: >I agree with Stuart that there is no reason for shared lines in the first >place=2E It seems like a design flaw to have a common queue that congests= in >a way that impacts the one transmit unit as the atomic forwarding plane >unit=2E=20 [SM] How does that generalize to internet access links? My gut feeling is = that an FQ scheduler comes close=2E The goal of virtual output queueing > is to elimina= te >head of line blocking, every egress transmit unit gets its own cashier wi= th >no competition=2E The VOQ queue depths should support one transmit unit = and >any jitter through the switching subsystem - jitter for the case of >non-bloat and where a faster VOQ service rate can drain the VOQ=2E If th= e >VOQ can't be drained per a faster service rate, then it's just one >transmit unit as the queue is now just a standing queue w/delay and no >benefit=2E [SM] I guess often things are obvious only retrospectively, but how could = one design a switch differently? > >Many network engineers typically, though incorrectly, perceive a transmit >unit as one ethernet packet=2E With WiFi it's one Mu transmission or one = Su >transmission, with aggregation(s), which is a lot more than one ethernet >packet but it depends on things like MCS, spatial stream powers, Mu peers= , >etc=2E and is variable=2E Some data center designs have optimized the >forwarding plane for flow completion times so their equivalent transmit >unit is a mouse flow=2E [SM] Is this driven more by the need to aggregate packets to amortize some= cost over a larger payload or to reduce the scheduling overhead or to regu= larize things (as in fixed size DTUs used in DSL with G=2EINP retransmissio= ns)? > >I perceive applying AQM to shared queue congestion as a mitigation >technique to a poorly designed forwarding plane=2E The hope is that >transistor engineers don't do this and "design out the lines" from the >beginning=2E Better switching engineering vs queue management applied >afterwards as a mitigation technique=2E [SM] I am all for better hardware, but will this ever allow us the regress= back to dumb upper layers? I have some doubts, but hey I would not be unha= ppy if my AQM would stay idle most of the time, because lower layers avoid = triggering it=2E > >Bob > >On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 7:58 PM David Lang via Make-wifi-fast < >make-wifi-fast@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet> wrote: > >> On Mon, 17 Oct 2022, Dave Taht via Bloat wrote: >> >> > On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 5:02 PM Stuart Cheshire >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On 9 Oct 2022, at 06:14, Dave Taht via Make-wifi-fast < >> make-wifi-fast@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet> wrote: >> >> >> >> > This was so massively well done, I cried=2E Does anyone know how t= o get >> in touch with the ifxit folk? >> >> > >> >> > https://www=2Eyoutube=2Ecom/watch?v=3DUICh3ScfNWI >> >> >> >> I=E2=80=99m surprised that you liked this video=2E It seems to me th= at it repeats >> all the standard misinformation=2E The analogy they use is the standard >> terrible example of waiting in a long line at a grocery store, and the >> =E2=80=9Csolution=E2=80=9D is letting certain traffic =E2=80=9Cjump the= line, angering everyone >> behind them=E2=80=9D=2E >> > >> > Accuracy be damned=2E The analogy to common experience resonates more= =2E >> >> actually, fair queueing is more like the '15 items or less' lanes to sp= eed >> through the people doing simple things rather than having them wait beh= ind >> the >> mother of 7 doing their monthly shopping=2E >> >> David Lang_______________________________________________ >> Make-wifi-fast mailing list >> Make-wifi-fast@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >> https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/make-wifi-fast > --=20 Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E