From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qk1-x733.google.com (mail-qk1-x733.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::733]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C22D73CB35 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 2021 17:39:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x733.google.com with SMTP id 77so6292148qkh.6 for ; Thu, 07 Oct 2021 14:39:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:references:message-id; bh=sjaWP+VSOQD/qw+Am3ogA11mk1vdvZ4a8+SBLcrhtEA=; b=aSJnXLuq7OaHICDwN91+nyyx8qV6byNDUn9cHRHkOalroq9kXSH7BiUTw6s9f4PzRn H6m6DomkQXmjZDjWDCEx8Eq4z4IOH2baoxLzVGYUU3HdNWaE/AtK5S4JZUXashVtyPUr ya0fV2xn3+IEND2F+m1/Le5L/D4aHfxIXJPQDVJ6Sm3dyFsuiI8JwwQyWLHwbYvT0lLE im+gZCid5XfOd0h26j+qF8qyaMSQCdHKlSY+t1jXjFrTxD2OyL/MRO5L9GJ0Ctr3L1kF WJuQKtqftE/GGpBS429YL2Kq57QaL7Zljf0s7sS3rihxPLVDCjgpeDDJd85oM3Fr7+uw cqzg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:references:message-id; bh=sjaWP+VSOQD/qw+Am3ogA11mk1vdvZ4a8+SBLcrhtEA=; b=xBOxpAuxDEGczksKLSCW7Xis/OhrU4W/CTdcWLEekL4Q6LP/l8SzWBlN0dJ2NUkTzZ LkWZpYJfg/t4oiJOll9rhXI78xYnAX+Lc27d7LrPWD4WqdshL5qoohtsZNMxR2kQtMM6 9BMJrDeNMYG0Qlbm9dZimQZNk0mQVeFSvSZspVPpCxpfy9GtEymyctmzA0ZNi9yAgjND RZp7/0vRPPul7wPmOKYsOvvrN9PIa3O3JyawFG8QINLeEf5zJBFDNFkvI92oy4iE7N9H 7bsggs7ZenVHXCIRMjY+ogySQnWojGdw/KzuFsNAcr60rr6IQUjkeH1b2i8Z8BKFYrCH qPMA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531Pq5FMGiQMAd/1Kss/j+8fh06tAaECpTAtqV17XinYWjLW3xb2 IsFpvo2OTYn2+ap66UhRJFcS8esUsPM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwfAc2bECpMngRiZiJlZuYKcCO6Ies56JUKi6zyyc97SfiUeLyb3/EitR6OL5xSHE+EOmiCZA== X-Received: by 2002:a37:8243:: with SMTP id e64mr5340144qkd.359.1633642756189; Thu, 07 Oct 2021 14:39:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from richs-mbp-pro.lan ([198.55.239.186]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l22sm517300qke.39.2021.10.07.14.39.15 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 07 Oct 2021 14:39:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Rich Brown Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 17:39:15 -0400 In-Reply-To: <7B6803AB-A910-4BD0-A4E8-63E7CD600790@jonathanfoulkes.com> Cc: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net References: <7B6803AB-A910-4BD0-A4E8-63E7CD600790@jonathanfoulkes.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Subject: Re: [Rpm] Alternate definitions of "working condition" - unnecessary? X-BeenThere: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2021 21:39:16 -0000 Thanks for all these thoughts. I see that there *are* indeed other tests = that could be applied. (And we mustn't forget the DSLReports or Waveform = tools.) I'm going to switch things up, and and argue the plight of the poor = engineer at some Wi-Fi chip or router manufacturer. Suppose the RPM Test tool is wildly successful. Customers everywhere are = using it and finding that their current routers stink out loud. They = complain to their vendors. The marketing department says, "This is = terrible!" to their product managers, who all see the light, and walk = into the design team to say, "We need to be responsive! Make it so!" What's an engineer to do? a) At the minimum, they should figure out how to get = fq_codel/cake/PIE/whatever into the product. That'll make a world of = difference. b) But then ... what? Engineers need to optimize against some = "standard".=20 - Do we have an obligation to declare some "standard of goodness"? - Is it sufficient to be "good enough"? What does that mean? - 95th percentile latency less than max(5 msec or 2 packet = transmission times)?=20 - RPM above 2000? - Something else? Thanks again for indulging in my fantasy (that vendors will ever care = about responsiveness...) Rich=