From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wr1-x42e.google.com (mail-wr1-x42e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BC7E63B2A4; Wed, 26 Oct 2022 11:57:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x42e.google.com with SMTP id j15so16599314wrq.3; Wed, 26 Oct 2022 08:57:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=u3mOGiCpztw1ZeS5mFBKhybaV4956cyu89UkSRDaUes=; b=mOmmNgpsIW8AyOqvK8XWNlHss1m8TtCf+Ezcv5BFtgjbO86Dw/gZfQeCBj2ZUltJrx 02gMT9LWzxGmKPybVY4lllZio0Tr9MGrsoFZTq4+vmgbOPaUENtnBAHvu11mX0321wWO 0UZsjMmjsFdm5StzFjOtu+AL49bHT0d/66KZZCcahIgtHkvg3JpA4K5JODgY2zd24oMC sFRhvsSETCZHw4uShcBCAvh6aBhtsR+mYBNvEuRowI1ZRc72RjMKupoy8Bs/zhHzBFLb F3mqqpExyOwMdUwt0MjWkhLthatSfwQY+jNOyzMbkA1ATgfAZBKax8rXbRtwGMkYld9W o0eA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=u3mOGiCpztw1ZeS5mFBKhybaV4956cyu89UkSRDaUes=; b=pDZMu26HHOqCkaaQzQxF92R3MXlP8IE0Vi1rk1oaEJDB+3dgcut5jYvBZt3IGSeyf/ vaAkz/cdqtBA31vJYFgBKus4bVH08Mw0AQXDUd+l7n27mqnkKC9AcutIpK8bERTq2pqS /IlHVK7KoDAjU5MZyH7G/nyGuhuwLhy7VldPWa/y8UN+VdX2OmJPAWZd/lfltM78Mc1t VSMNDLkpNVcf5DG52fnzNNft3ivfZW2WLNsuTP3GaivmkHZslmvVJAq4ERRUt9dTMmBZ seB6SXeU5nX5twYWqktvxqCknks3BakTptKOJFtTevopfQSOqHValOSMRhAKYdPXEFOM 669A== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf2Vhzkt4KcGCiw6HJg/eFQQzS4zDTvZKZFu7+HD3jSt4qGcs1Q2 Zpko1HM5PBZ7afyXOJwawLx1QMTMCyEClXEW4ng= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM5x8ijBBvQ9pGBUAHHrDDqOvM8dWL/+K39Ma8/YZYrejacnXFQ738wi5cXa8PkFsnyzFFVp+a8LPCIrj01VytQ= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:47a1:0:b0:236:6f4d:1db3 with SMTP id 1-20020a5d47a1000000b002366f4d1db3mr11788647wrb.383.1666799835092; Wed, 26 Oct 2022 08:57:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2C3CDDC5-DEE6-4F96-8B2F-60FF093EE412@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2022 08:57:03 -0700 Message-ID: To: dan Cc: Sebastian Moeller , Rpm , libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Rpm] [LibreQoS] benton's consumer broadband label prototype X-BeenThere: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2022 15:57:16 -0000 Well, the FCC is due to announce their proposal for consumer broadband labels on Nov 15th. What it actually is, hasn't leaked. I'd be assembling my best arguments, venting, and planning press releases through my favorite lobbyists, kind of like this, to prep for that day: https://watergate.info/1969/07/20/an-undelivered-nixon-speech.html On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 8:42 AM dan wrote: > > My argument here is more about government inadequacies. Without governme= nt warning labels for internet service we have a massive streaming industry= , gaming industry, home office workers, and so on. It's imperfect, but the= fact that many of us complain about how kids are stuck in front of an xbox= playing fortnite... well I guess it's working to some degree. > > Government's ability to regulate and protect consumers that already exist= s just isn't utilized, ie if you say you sell X, you give X else void contr= act and potential refunds of up-front costs. In the US at least, the gove= rnment's decision making process has fed the 'bad' companies 3000-4000 per = subscriber to build out services that don't address the underserved anyway.= All of this money thrown out there by the government making their decisio= ns and they've not moved the needle at all. > > IMO, very simple rules on advertising based on delivering what is claimed= will force industry innovation. If a company says 'fast' and that term is= too broad, then any attack on 'my latency is crap so this isn't fast' coul= d lead to refunds. This is capitalism after all. Maybe companies should = have to say 'best throughput' if they are trying to hyper their 1G or 2G se= rvice, they can't say 'fast' because that's not really a valid measure. 'g= reat low latency services' instead of fast. We have the language to mark= et properly but companies are allowed to market vaguely and it IMO contribu= tes to consumer ignorance and misunderstanding. > > For our 'fiber like' services we literally pitch latencies to various gam= ing services and zoom relays. > > > On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 9:27 AM Sebastian Moeller wrote= : >> >> Hi Dan, >> >> >> > On Oct 26, 2022, at 17:09, dan via Rpm wro= te: >> > >> > Complete fail on a marketing perspective though, this would have to be= legislated and then handled by a third party. >> >> [SM] Well this is not intended to be a marketing tool, but a reg= ulatory tool to make sure the market works to the benefit of society (I und= erstand that market members are incentivized to skew the market mechanism t= o their advantage, this is why working markets need equally working regulat= ion, just like competitive sports require umpires/referees). So yes legisla= tion might well be required, but that would not be a sign of failure, no? >> >> > No one is going to put out essentially a warning label that says 'poo= r' or 'marginal' in any category for a product they sell. I wouldn't, and = we have LTE services to get to people with no other option and they are qui= te happy, it would be detrimental to hand them a sheet that says that the s= ervice is actually 'poor'. >> >> [SM] True, but e.g. in Germany ISPs are required by law to publi= sh their contracted rates in a pre-described fashion pre-sale and are actua= lly held responsible to some degree to actually deliver the promised rates.= (Well, not really, but consumers can get a cost-free right to immediately = cancel their contract or reduce their payments commensurate to the under-de= livery of the contracted speed*). What happens here is not that ISPs need t= o disclose shitty service but that the need to declare what they intend to = deliver and they are simply held responsible to actually do so**. >> >> >> *) The first option is already well established and works, the payment r= eduction part is ATM still being worked out. >> **) Unfortunately, the required numbers currently do not include latency= under load or even idle latency... there is still work ahead to convince t= he regulatory agency of that. >> >> > Also, my trust in the government to decide what's good or bad... laugh= able. >> >> [SM] Compared to bigger cooperations operating in "free-market" = capitalism? Really there is no alternative to government for that purpose..= . >> >> > You'd get things like on the example page. 903.5Mbps Median downlo= ad speed, 811.8 Median upload speed, gaming rating poor and video conferenc= ing marginal, on Fios service. I know that's an example, but it's so spot = on what the government might do... >> >> [SM] See e.g.: >> https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Sachgebiete/Tel= ekommunikation/Unternehmen_Institutionen/Anbieterpflichten/Kundenschutz/Tra= nsparenzma=C3=9Fnahmen/templates_for_information_sheets.pdf;jsessionid=3D08= 68AE15965FB584C81008C96BA15E4B?__blob=3DpublicationFile&v=3D1 >> and >> https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Sachgebiete/Tel= ekommunikation/Unternehmen_Institutionen/Anbieterpflichten/Kundenschutz/Tra= nsparenzma=C3=9Fnahmen/Instruction_for_drawing_up_PIS.pdf;jsessionid=3D0868= AE15965FB584C81008C96BA15E4B?__blob=3DpublicationFile&v=3D1 >> >> for how something similar might look in practice. >> >> > >> > As an operator, I will not implement this unless forced to and then I'= ll support lobby efforts to get it removed. >> >> [SM] Ad that is why we can't have nice things... ;) No really, I= agree this needs legislative/regulatory backing/teeth to work, but that is= not a failure but simply how our system developed. >> >> Regards >> Sebastian >> >> >> > >> > On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 8:30 PM Dave Taht via LibreQoS wrote: >> > is actually... not bad. >> > >> > https://www.benton.org/blog/consumer-driven-broadband-label-design >> > >> > -- >> > This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: >> > https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-698136= 6665607352320-FXtz >> > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >> > _______________________________________________ >> > LibreQoS mailing list >> > LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Rpm mailing list >> > Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm >> --=20 This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-69813666656= 07352320-FXtz Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC