From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wm1-x332.google.com (mail-wm1-x332.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::332]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9CFCC3B2A4 for ; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 18:40:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-wm1-x332.google.com with SMTP id l5-20020a05600c4f0500b003dc4050c94aso1066554wmq.4 for ; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 15:40:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=N7h+hQwctn0zS+NQY4ihtVy3nEsa/gILC9W9fNyAei8=; b=KOUPeUb3GM18W5so9NhCnJuPF+R7Fqx8XqV5Bye+dYOf8etOFEPDvpbHIQTCA36PjJ J65Mr9tPSMnOn8DhnfNrxUyItL6WYxmEKiPe0tfMtTQl02E69zW1GDi53nVY8QfCuITI 9x7DE1f60QN35kolDjl4X2rx3t8llS0HMWm36w2AMVlKYb2TO8VgMYlm6YiLuLaWDhSI XVzJqnDQ6amGXcUsnbIm2oIQrEqfoVXqtigQEeKP6Q/ZLNIYLQNPtNvkdVI9e7F3rCOd u7tdEM+lMB4UEfn/z1izAuBfAN1LTyB3TeMoMy9dhMQuxGzwxT9d7WPRgmMVDFHTKHHI U3qA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=N7h+hQwctn0zS+NQY4ihtVy3nEsa/gILC9W9fNyAei8=; b=fcHiWlpB8AZgeOtKZ+JYcBaLiSX1GjWcrqbpI4v3Qck2sLLoXEbQXQN/5Mg6L02WIk 3T0guy3xno+Tz63vEOENf9U57qKBNUd+/jLnuRTUApoMFFMBeS0jXIQM7TX8FUsed2aq LE27WulyJua5akGRtFoLTXrfDlU26aUQV9/xMET0eETeFVyARS83VpuwHSibenOCLBfU M1UzII98pf26M4tLHQEHtveNWrSMo4gcGf5irFT8R/QsTxx/jT0Ea8D+F00PGQKRIeKv n/jevtdrEF9Hd88xk7q9PhPSUolMbmo+OmREsLdrGEmPGmbH6108jv+iBIlY0tPC2wOv N+qA== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKWYUPhNmoX/jOVAst6HpcCeP3nqgd+nXNDlbxnicReSJY1EbI9Q RXxuTRLM25IirNcVlZ7jU3usLJNWq+Cirzy9WwsaoYg9 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set/QpG+7ZbqvwQy0h/hg6/paZEK3fHcdFNzU8w1QSb4IGPpOqLtiyR6n+POWCzAUnLaDHBWMiE1NdguTrEU0P5M= X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:8506:b0:3e2:1c73:a1aa with SMTP id gw6-20020a05600c850600b003e21c73a1aamr152064wmb.206.1676850042481; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 15:40:42 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <26ac4e4e00b1d0f20c816630fafb7e58@rjmcmahon.com> In-Reply-To: <26ac4e4e00b1d0f20c816630fafb7e58@rjmcmahon.com> From: Dave Taht Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2023 15:40:30 -0800 Message-ID: To: rjmcmahon Cc: Rpm Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Rpm] Almost had a dialog going with juniper... X-BeenThere: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2023 23:40:43 -0000 On Sun, Feb 19, 2023 at 3:34 PM rjmcmahon wrote: > > Their post isn't really about bloat. It's about the discrepancy in i/o > bw of memory off-chip and on-chip. The original comment thread was about how the flow queuing aspect of fq_codel derived algorithms, would leverage on-chip resources better, and about how VOQs do misbehave today. > > My opinion is that the off-chip memory or hybrid approach is a design > flaw for a serious router mfg. I concur. I think we need smarter buffering, not more buffering. Admittedly while the overhead for 10,000 fq_codel'd virtual queues (e.g. 1 million total queue states) without tuning is presently 64M that needs to live in high speed memory for that next indirect lookup... it is possible to trim that down quite a lot. > The flaw is thinking the links' rates and > the chip memory i/o rates aren't connected when obviously they are. Just > go fast as possible and let some other device buffer, e.g. the end host > or the server in the cloud. Juniper will hold onto their big buffers are profitable^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hneeded strategy until the bitter end. > > Bob > > https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/juniper/ > > > > But they deleted the comment thread. It is interesting, I suppose, to > > see how they frame the buffering problems to themselves in their post: > > https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/sizing-router-buffers-small-new-big-shar= ada-yeluri/ --=20 Surveillance Capitalism? Or DIY? Choose: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/an_upgrade_in_place/ Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC