From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wm1-x335.google.com (mail-wm1-x335.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::335]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E94663CBC5; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 13:53:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x335.google.com with SMTP id p16so13127146wmq.5; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 10:53:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1678902822; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=zLYDh9YGTknGPeMAFNpOhgEKkULWlpcmiYeOMySvoWY=; b=MSlPTjLP05OWkSE7rSGMHASP5g/UiMVRS1LE3WfETGNMHJ5JV9rdoXJKF5nHRx1+GJ pWCtJ0/5SCSv8j6LY7WDsqclgjfMJT4H0T/FLWz6ibtCwy/aMSQcJXe52mRr6FOL6V/a yU8ygxukJnfDYAAsj7sFlRruYgB34I5AvnQvjHvKfqG7ml93i3snpMlPVTLqrX/ZHnrQ 8gCYkHcDZO9e653yeScMojPwFSUBLxF8keYP3OzVT7AGDuhlnvZCYxoLRnEtJcElYUsE sGHf7ayX1ttmc2s2tq5bxYyMf3hO/PQLn8a7V7tVMDxe7U4kq56VeTv8HmLaw6HwHYQT viJw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1678902822; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=zLYDh9YGTknGPeMAFNpOhgEKkULWlpcmiYeOMySvoWY=; b=TjuHziHCnhR18Ho03ENewg2q2gdnracZlCeybCxoHzSW20HLDqWVLxLOJzXIkIWDqa 2oP9GSMYNFbTr4LETJuHX9i9ryjiPQBX9ecaRFP4bt6xWmiLAnmANfL0fV1Dxkp5Iy0r 3ZYRSvXNoC0fyJxeHJpp3f+4dpeUE0joSVVeLoph7QFQMWQW5v1bhaNIwiMWIqCls2ul whVvwFHm02wZToHhGtn3Oqm9331EJdsY56WNSbxk49331odfAFBuwfzlQZfba7sVUmyg tx4PWKEZ6VJ6Gkz2H7q3pxzxzUUKt8mPyRG2viMPE9fEDJtiEYt8Ijtm7TAu/BLfrC0g GTnQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKUGGfNlqse057Y+Jq5Vm14hXthfgcGjdn6Ss+OnOPFarLMSM2/q 4c36JDD8vi2rLrIX77DlhqtinE93iMOGqLz9GZA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set+zh89KJkyg2K8lL2lKzXlj04/5udpViYuiJl7QByn3t0q/hUFiH1reC5V/AkjoOTRoptgnyoLW6BtehijWzUs= X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:54d0:b0:3df:d852:ede2 with SMTP id iw16-20020a05600c54d000b003dfd852ede2mr5660850wmb.0.1678902822205; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 10:53:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <22C819FA-DDD7-4B9B-8C09-8008D4273287@gmx.de> <5e7fac51071bdbb20837e72e7eedfc7c@rjmcmahon.com> <3f45d2a0b6e46d7b2775fb801e805f93@rjmcmahon.com> <70F71290-C6CB-4D19-8A88-F0F17C0BDDA2@gmx.de> <5e0cd693c4749d128dbb48d6c1129071@rjmcmahon.com> <2ab2983d-6beb-49cb-8c35-e481cbfdc7a3@Spark> <89c55d67-86f0-494d-a09e-c9aeebe46dc0@rjmcmahon.com> <70CBB03C-4394-4A93-BBB5-7449DC1AAF9C@gmx.de> <063359bf-5bf3-4688-852c-a7d81e6b80a3@rjmcmahon.com> <21f2252ff57e60dc52e7b9a6db8ba936@rjmcmahon.com> <8a04de1c-2d47-4226-a1ac-ea3d5e7b7253@rjmcmahon.com> <949886c0f65025a626887d09a818c233@rjmcmahon.com> <7d7d508f127db23c1904f7f08946d674@rjmcmahon.com> In-Reply-To: <7d7d508f127db23c1904f7f08946d674@rjmcmahon.com> From: Dave Taht Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 10:53:30 -0700 Message-ID: To: rjmcmahon Cc: Sebastian Moeller , Rpm , dan , Bruce Perens , libreqos , Dave Taht via Starlink , bloat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Rpm] [Bloat] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] On FiWi X-BeenThere: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 17:53:44 -0000 On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 10:49=E2=80=AFAM rjmcmahon via Rpm wrote: > > Agreed, AQM is like an emergency brake. Go ahead and keep it but hope to > never need to use it. Tee-hee, flow queuing is like having a 1024 lanes that can be used for everything from pedestrians, to bicycles, to trucks and trains. I would settle for FQ everywhere over AQM. This has been a very fun conversation and I am struggling to keep up. I have sometimes thought that LiFi (https://lifi.co/) would suddenly come out of the woodwork, and we would be networking over that through the household. > > Bob > > Hi Bob, > > > > I like your design sketch and the ideas behind it. > > > > > >> On Mar 15, 2023, at 18:32, rjmcmahon via Bloat > >> wrote: > >> > >> The 6G is a contiguous 1200MhZ. It has low power indoor (LPI) and very > >> low power (VLP) modes. The pluggable transceiver could be color coded > >> to a chanspec, then the four color map problem can be used by > >> installers per those chanspecs. > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_color_theorem > > > > Maybe design this to be dual band from the start to avoid the up/= down > > "tdm" approach we currently use? Better yet go full duplex, which > > might be an option if we get enough radios that not much > > beamforming/MIMO is necessary? I obviously lack deep enough > > understanf=3Ddingwhether this makes any sense or is just buzzword bingo > > from my side :) > > > > > >> > >> There is no CTS with microwave "interference" The high-speed PHY rates > >> combined with low-density AP/STA ratios, ideally 1/1, decrease the > >> probability of time signal superpositions. The goal with wireless > >> isn't high densities but to unleash humans. A bunch of humans stuck in > >> a dog park isn't really being unleashed. It's the ability to move from > >> block to block so-to-speak. FiWi is cheaper than sidewalks, sanitation > >> systems, etc. > >> > >> The goal now is very low latency. Higher phy rates can achieve that > >> and leave the medium free the vast most of the time and shut down the > >> RRH too. Engineering extra capacity by orders of magnitude is better > >> than AQM. This has been the case in data centers for decades. > >> Congestion? Add a zero (or multiple by 10) > > > > I am weary of this kind of trust in continuous exponential growth= ... > > at one point we reach a limit and will need to figure out how to deal > > with congestion again, so why drop this capability on the way? The > > nice thing about AQMs is if there is no queue build up these basically > > do nothing... (might need some design changes to optimize an AQM to be > > as cheap as possible for the uncontended case)... > > > >> Note: None of this is done. This is a 5-10 year project with zero > >> engineering resources assigned. > >> > >> Bob > >>> On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 5:11=E2=80=AFPM Robert McMahon > >>> wrote: > >>>> the AP needs to blast a CTS so every other possible conversation has > >>>> to halt. > >>> The wireless network is not a bus. This still ignores the hidden > >>> transmitter problem because there is a similar network in the next > >>> room. > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Bloat mailing list > >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > _______________________________________________ > Rpm mailing list > Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm --=20 Come Heckle Mar 6-9 at: https://www.understandinglatency.com/ Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC