From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wr1-x42f.google.com (mail-wr1-x42f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D16B3CBF2; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 15:39:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x42f.google.com with SMTP id l1so18304301wry.12; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 12:39:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1678909191; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=8XryiSzk4rbm98Yxi3gthVWz43AmBwso+Mp1Gm3PdG4=; b=iXcO7CnKRPxE++xBjCKBwmJkbHfC59wFIDsuHmpio0AmG1bBi48q6dq4bP67MoNd7d 4QWbxo3JC2/3sPaASIq/iDgS3K8WdCWJF1MTuarlBt0L7qBv7FvtYVe+fWzAJyn323aj vxjKxDx6GCD6GCpMV0h9lIaikL8+q6md8XF2Re9NixyrdloJDJmNR/qUT6j3M7J+gGu+ GLu09IGl0z3zH1xHCzctkB/qYWHlYR0/U7u542yhlOcfYVDzyv3FKL/ZflPSbzh7SOPo /vh6SOudPSJO3zzerYzI7IJWWhVJo5/oXHopuf7CVfkU3T5zLTIvyrJ/2edETiiy0YM4 ErIw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1678909191; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=8XryiSzk4rbm98Yxi3gthVWz43AmBwso+Mp1Gm3PdG4=; b=xQI3/8dnbW1Bp7PoGXEmazIcvtWOYyJ8RLJn4tvN7E7BwLleLkneadqWpC+C7iATyw L1TvDgR19ASCyQsaeaht8ZlHHp26T1tXNmS8tNKdiEoHHEBmg657YJyo41rZ257978BU 6FAEaFp/lgLwI+R9mjkKM8xMp7Uuj/xZx4DN4f3O4Wby4X5jhtIEPPF6jNu6ak3fRfpt t/rHVFSKGNnTKjyuZ8am4LOTKi7a8QOCEBQ0UiPQ2rWnH+c+cr26RU2vNMFb9Wlanp5J Ck7Ya7QlYEtgo20OwdH+Nes2lXU6d7KDQcF7lGimR6zePRJ/QrMMtmBdkJAuQmjBVeFG Vb+g== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKW8FRx+N/qT5pTnZHtWrPxfaHLbjnfidvPFOQYOZXkMu9ulR9Nq CzFEs16Y3tZWPdUFiFtuTGvx6hdUFuPq/FXs11Q= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set9um58ytnKRCTrwqLgDBLXIs8ey702MpxujOwZsh2KRWpiJHYuP2XPdzHhJAIKvmhLEtAh+ylCwV4PcOceOnJU= X-Received: by 2002:adf:dd46:0:b0:2c7:1320:7781 with SMTP id u6-20020adfdd46000000b002c713207781mr770643wrm.13.1678909191317; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 12:39:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5e0cd693c4749d128dbb48d6c1129071@rjmcmahon.com> <2ab2983d-6beb-49cb-8c35-e481cbfdc7a3@Spark> <89c55d67-86f0-494d-a09e-c9aeebe46dc0@rjmcmahon.com> <70CBB03C-4394-4A93-BBB5-7449DC1AAF9C@gmx.de> <063359bf-5bf3-4688-852c-a7d81e6b80a3@rjmcmahon.com> <21f2252ff57e60dc52e7b9a6db8ba936@rjmcmahon.com> <8a04de1c-2d47-4226-a1ac-ea3d5e7b7253@rjmcmahon.com> <949886c0f65025a626887d09a818c233@rjmcmahon.com> <48q03o08-ro20-2p59-1644-sp73526024q3@ynat.uz> In-Reply-To: <48q03o08-ro20-2p59-1644-sp73526024q3@ynat.uz> From: Dave Taht Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 12:39:39 -0700 Message-ID: To: David Lang Cc: dan , Rpm , libreqos , Bruce Perens , Dave Taht via Starlink , bloat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Rpm] [Bloat] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] On FiWi X-BeenThere: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 19:39:52 -0000 On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 12:33=E2=80=AFPM David Lang via Rpm wrote: > > if you want another example of the failure, look at any conference center= , they > have a small number of APs with wide coverage. It works well when the pla= ce is > empty and they walk around and test it, but when it fills up with users, = the > entire network collapses. > > Part of this is that wifi was really designed for sparse environments, so= it's > solution to "I didn't get my message through" is to talk slower (and loud= er if > possible), which just creates more interference for other users and reduc= es the > available airtime. > > I just finished the Scale conference in Pasadena, CA. We deployed over 10= 0 APs > for the conference, up to 7 in a room, on the floor (so that the attendee= s > bodies attenuate the signal) at low power so that the channels could be r= e-used > more readily. How did it go? You were deploying fq_codel on the wndr3800s there as of a few years ago, and I remember you got rave reviews... (can you repost the link to that old data/blog/podcast?) Did you get any good stats? Run cake anywhere? > > in the cell phone world they discovered 'microcells' years ago, but with = wifi > too many people are still trying to cover the max area with the fewest po= ssible > number of radios. As Dan says, it just doesn't work. > > and on mesh radios, you need to not just use a different channel for your > uplink, you need a different band to avoid desense on the connection to y= our > users. And that uplink is going to have the same hidden transmitter and a= irtime > problems competing with the other nodes also doing the uplink that it's > scalability is very limited (even with directional antennas). Wire/fiber = for the > uplink is much better. > > David Lang > > > > On Wed, 15 Mar > 2023, dan via Bloat wrote: > > > Trying to do all of what is currently wanted with 1 AP in a house is a = huge > > part of the current problems with WiFi networks. MOAR power to try to > > overcome attenuation and reflections from walls so more power bleeds in= to > > the next home/suite/apartment etc. > > > > In the MSP space it's been rapidly moving to an AP per room with output > > turned down to minimum. Doing this we can reused 5Ghz channels 50ft = away > > (through 2 walls etc...) without interference. > > > > One issue with the RRH model is that to accomplish this 'light bulb' mo= del, > > ie you put a light bulb in the room you want light, is that it requires > > infrastructure cabling. 1 RRH AP in a house is already a failure today= and > > accounts for most access complaints. > > > > Mesh radios have provided a bit of a gap fill, getting the access SSID > > closer to the device and backhauling on a separate channel with better = (and > > likely fixed position ) antennas. > > > > regardless of my opinion on the full on failure of moving firewall off = prem > > and the associated security risks and liabilities, single AP in a home = is > > already a proven failure that has given rise to the mesh systems that a= re > > top sellers and top performers today. > > > > IMO, there was a scheme that gained a moment of fame and then died out = of > > powerline networking and an AP per room off that powerline network. I = have > > some of these deployed with mikrotik PLA adapters and the model works > > fantastically, but the powerline networking has evolved slowly so I'm > > seeing ~200Mbps practical speeds, and the mikrotik units have 802.11n > > radios in them so also a bit of a struggle for modern speeds. This mo= del, > > with some development to get ~2.5Gbps practical speeds, and WiFi6 or Wi= Fi7 > > per room at very low output power, is a very practical and deployable b= y > > consumers setup. > > > > WiFi7 also solves some pieces of this with AP coordination and > > co-transmission, sort of like a MUMIMO with multiple APs, and that's in > > early devices already (TPLINK just launched an AP). > > > > IMO, too many hurdles for RRH models from massive amounts of unfrastruc= ture > > to build, homes and appartment buildings that need re-wired, security a= nd > > liability concerns of homes and business not being firewall isolated by > > stakeholders of those networks. > > > > On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 11:32=E2=80=AFAM rjmcmahon wrote: > > > >> The 6G is a contiguous 1200MhZ. It has low power indoor (LPI) and very > >> low power (VLP) modes. The pluggable transceiver could be color coded = to > >> a chanspec, then the four color map problem can be used by installers > >> per those chanspecs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_color_theorem > >> > >> There is no CTS with microwave "interference" The high-speed PHY rates > >> combined with low-density AP/STA ratios, ideally 1/1, decrease the > >> probability of time signal superpositions. The goal with wireless isn'= t > >> high densities but to unleash humans. A bunch of humans stuck in a dog > >> park isn't really being unleashed. It's the ability to move from block > >> to block so-to-speak. FiWi is cheaper than sidewalks, sanitation > >> systems, etc. > >> > >> The goal now is very low latency. Higher phy rates can achieve that an= d > >> leave the medium free the vast most of the time and shut down the RRH > >> too. Engineering extra capacity by orders of magnitude is better than > >> AQM. This has been the case in data centers for decades. Congestion? A= dd > >> a zero (or multiple by 10) > >> > >> Note: None of this is done. This is a 5-10 year project with zero > >> engineering resources assigned. > >> > >> Bob > >>> On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 5:11=E2=80=AFPM Robert McMahon > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> the AP needs to blast a CTS so every other possible conversation has > >>>> to halt. > >>> > >>> The wireless network is not a bus. This still ignores the hidden > >>> transmitter problem because there is a similar network in the next > >>> room. > >> > >_______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > _______________________________________________ > Rpm mailing list > Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm --=20 Come Heckle Mar 6-9 at: https://www.understandinglatency.com/ Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC