From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-yb1-xb2e.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DCD463B29D; Thu, 28 Sep 2023 15:30:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2e.google.com with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-d8195078f69so14599383276.3; Thu, 28 Sep 2023 12:30:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1695929444; x=1696534244; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=23pKH4D1B0uj5P/symtbVWr/Fomd/6coHx9GwhnlTZY=; b=Sa/NZB7XkCf30kUxwqKGyDNjHbUFp8jnCKkRUZFK8N2ioHtVMh2Hu+TdXKe+Dl7+w+ c0slFfI9AqDfPdIIa/EORZhFLVAsYNS8z4+/nNCDaP9zovjSj1WFaIJnsHLu9nM0GkHT I0qAa5QmS4UJMCXuGltkdtwmk99YjhDK/5DU1sc2DiMLpuwLIUscVOjE+bIpDLoQQswu kvSqqNFt3Tqm4EKOaGNRTRUe2zkQNr5Lkl1ciau33Z3mpqyysyY4Pq8S+FKgrOztHdQO smcaTUFkA3zAOrw2WfuSnrxJ5vXtZAWpQ3NKQx26nPUu2m1ayHYzvGaEksRQSQ9GtjnZ RTEg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1695929444; x=1696534244; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=23pKH4D1B0uj5P/symtbVWr/Fomd/6coHx9GwhnlTZY=; b=Ll6U4DUQU3a30WaVzYRqC7DbrR6SA+HE8VT6q7kB9X2Pokd7biZWDn1hLS8IbTfeGT XPvpe4+CyjfyKIEJtyM4Vt+6RwN+woDP/mCi1qzdxwSY/XQN35qZ7ERdEq/+ORFU2OzI F3Rpsgm0+qCy+eqed8b16wKqXGjH+8ruSsiI3G+97FGkS1JTIZhcFoeA0tXGSvrNTjjF N6FUzSk3rd3pr4qmFcfD2uKVrH27bqbKJxU3cz+fnCF0nNEIX1NjgrXThLteMTUUmlW6 st0LucqJjiaOX1XaBkfqpsSy9ufaTESZp4Kz0XdM41exZQCBOR/CWYOoAhHNSIHtNq/k UNcw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyklbTjCj7tJkzR8VGcXbM3m4En8fIHljItV2pGI1c0TKnLNJ6F ctMv9H/Y78+amzfu2RZj2yBIZHt0Ont/LAWMU0E= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHHlXvkK50/aVlrvBrOV3xaVARQs4XYLXRc5jTq4ykGGlgkFG2WcXXenv9OExsMF7QBZfLa0MD3/e8ZEUHvsjs= X-Received: by 2002:a25:d7cb:0:b0:d89:4775:d212 with SMTP id o194-20020a25d7cb000000b00d894775d212mr2093886ybg.46.1695929444051; Thu, 28 Sep 2023 12:30:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6EB2C99F-471B-4CD9-87A9-080A84A107B8@cable.comcast.com> In-Reply-To: <6EB2C99F-471B-4CD9-87A9-080A84A107B8@cable.comcast.com> From: Dave Taht Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2023 12:30:31 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Livingood, Jason" Cc: Sebastian Moeller , Dave Taht via Starlink , Rpm , Jamal Hadi Salim , bloat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Rpm] [Bloat] net neutrality back in the news X-BeenThere: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2023 19:30:44 -0000 I put it on hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3D37694306 I too strongly support formal NN rules, and am in general, against some but certainly not all of the title II regulation, and unlike jason, perhaps, tend to want to supercede lawyers=C2=B4 claims that it can only be solved via legal means with somehow providing sufficient technical advice and technology to make the truly needed things happen faster. I disagree thoroughly with the call for 100/20 nationwide, as one example that can be better addressed and more quickly, by fixing bufferbloat, and shoring up those with 10/1 service or none, to a level of 25/10. It is hard to understand the renewed fuss and furor, when law meets technical reality. "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled" - Richard Feynman. The only cynical observation I have, is that the entire mess generates billable hours and clickbait. https://www.vox.com/technology/2023/9/28/23893138/fcc-net-neutrality-return= s vs https://www.lightreading.com/regulatory-politics/at-mwc-fcc-s-carr-denounce= s-net-neutrality-revival-as-a-dead-end I really enjoyed reading "Jessica Rosenworcel=C2=B4s" down to earth and practical comments on tuesday: https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-397257A1.pdf particularly her admonishment for "no death threats this time=C2=A8, and calls for moderation such as: "They say Title II is heavy-handed. And if we were seeking comment on applying Title II to broadband in its entirety, they might have a point. But instead, we are proposing a light touch. Back in 2015, when the FCC last had net neutrality rules upheld by the courts, the FCC chose to forbear from 27 provisions of Title II of the Communications Act and over 700 agency regulations for broadband and broadband providers. We are sticking with that approach. They say this is a stalking horse for rate regulation. Nope. No how, no way. We know competition is the best way to bring down rates for consumers. And approaches like the Affordable Connectivity Program are the best bet for making sure service is affordable for all. They say nothing bad has happened. Again, states stepped into the void created by the FCC retreating from net neutrality. I think it is time for Washington to step back in with a national policy to make sure internet access is fast, open, and fair." On Thu, Sep 28, 2023 at 10:10=E2=80=AFAM Livingood, Jason wrote: > > On 9/28/23, 02:25, "Bloat on behalf of Sebastian Moeller via Bloat" on behalf of bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > wrote: > > But the core issue IMHO really was an economic one, the over-subscripti= on ratios that worked before torrenting simply did not cut it any more in a= n environment when customers actually tried to use their contracted access = rates "quantitatively". > > It was more complicated than that. At least in cable networks it came at = the end of single channel DOCSIS 2.0 devices, as cable upgraded to channel = bonding in DOCSIS 3.0 - which to your point brought dramatic increases in c= apacity. That was happening at the same time P2P was becoming popular. On t= he other hand, customers were congesting their own connections pretty perva= sively - trying to use VoIP while their P2P client was active. At the time = the P2P protocol tended to be pretty aggressive and smothered real-time app= s (if you gave the client 1 Mbps US it would use it, if 10 Mbps - used that= 100% as well, 25 Mbps - same, etc.). > > The answer ended up being a mix of more capacity, apps being more respons= ive to other LAN demands, and then advancements in congestion control & que= uing. But there were many customers who were basically self-congesting w/P= 2P and VoIP running in their home. > > > but this is why e.g. my bit torrent could affect your VoIP, simply by p= ushing the whole segment into upload capacity congestion... (ISPs in theory= could fix this by plain old QoS engineering, but the issue at hand was wit= h a non-ISP VoIP/SIP service and there QoS becomes tricky if the ISP as the= se packets need to be identified in a way that is not game-able**) > > Sure - for their own (nascent & small scale) digital voice products. But = to 3rd party VoIP - no one then was really doing inter-domain DSCP marking = end-to-end (still are not). The non-ISP offering here was the big driver of= consumer complaints. > > > ****) This is not to diss the press, they are doing what they are suppo= sed to do, but it just shows that active regulation is a tricky business, a= nd a light touch typically "looks better" (even though I see no real eviden= ce it actually works better). > > It's not made easier in the US where one can strongly support formal nati= onal NN rules but be against putting it under Title-II regulation vs. Title= -I. IANAL so cannot properly explain the nuances. Ultimately legislation is= the best solution, as this will just be in the courts for years, but our U= S Congress is not the most functional body these days and people have tried= to do legislation for many years. > > Jason > --=20 Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.htm= l Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos