From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-yb1-xb2c.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F26403CBC5; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 13:42:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2c.google.com with SMTP id z83so16320858ybb.2; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 10:42:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1678902131; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=I/qUwR0wDe0dcjyrSejZ0vLLMQJwlO9IXc2ah0fMY7w=; b=cK7PuLdgq376lG9AdBoTDHphjpZkK6kfucI00cZc1jkCT6EWO1sz3PUgefwXPN3lT0 t+AhTeykEQLI3usYA0gsKXH+776LIGob/h3A6GmFsP7qyDjUyj51G8BxLnv2LbXKY9aA BNP622Igsj8H949j/arS6bGtQxTxXtuL5OrH6x057fyU2C3TSEL0DzzGIQwP0jK9g66s YbIQDSzQ0KYkIFARCij7zqgWlpCqh56p1KyCFFoY8XaBELD/0iQRB6V1+hWao8wMQ8aI AS9+Ul6VYI14dLZv2Bj3jM3dftkPgrztt5AoaPKTkesnSA4IRyr3mAwXhAcM0rtW3bSK vVXQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1678902131; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=I/qUwR0wDe0dcjyrSejZ0vLLMQJwlO9IXc2ah0fMY7w=; b=e5O6Dg3T7QOTm6qZwOpbg5WYsHE2DVb+9h16DtKuoc6cmpo6XullUMx5FWNJiWd+XD CbO/HZzMI9Im7sAxphDwl5XGF355Z53r1ByhIRrv1mB/wqg5Aal++zlPqrKvXKvKvUXK nk8tVpr7g/AaS+nW5HT00m6ZMk5Dt84QznVnvSl+UFWPgQQN8m9CyZ1vsrK2ASS1aNPs 3dx+UN/jSG8aWgVSXINZdIt40o+bV1ckVcN4zwmcDCIR/qZKBqQVs0mlnr0FJ+nOyDR7 PoTGuT91E645C4lxv8hC/1hKjIj4lhNLM+brPq2ZGaAFbWW716ozALzf0JQ6uaFTLvap aiOQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKVYyij0ypc00o+clLJVRRKOIraoRzFrSBwARou+tX8Buq4B5FnA mnAaAvNmbbmLqiwwaVKUBVhyLbs66fDRb078Bfc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set+IuqGPuykDNPetBx7E0t17e21jUJn67JkB+PwZvrQnFsIFzNbst8y5TG/EedgVx9pLUazYxbSlPy9IdeJTXSk= X-Received: by 2002:a5b:68c:0:b0:b30:d9c:b393 with SMTP id j12-20020a5b068c000000b00b300d9cb393mr12126448ybq.12.1678902131056; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 10:42:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <22C819FA-DDD7-4B9B-8C09-8008D4273287@gmx.de> <5e7fac51071bdbb20837e72e7eedfc7c@rjmcmahon.com> <3f45d2a0b6e46d7b2775fb801e805f93@rjmcmahon.com> <70F71290-C6CB-4D19-8A88-F0F17C0BDDA2@gmx.de> <5e0cd693c4749d128dbb48d6c1129071@rjmcmahon.com> <2ab2983d-6beb-49cb-8c35-e481cbfdc7a3@Spark> <89c55d67-86f0-494d-a09e-c9aeebe46dc0@rjmcmahon.com> <70CBB03C-4394-4A93-BBB5-7449DC1AAF9C@gmx.de> <063359bf-5bf3-4688-852c-a7d81e6b80a3@rjmcmahon.com> <21f2252ff57e60dc52e7b9a6db8ba936@rjmcmahon.com> <8a04de1c-2d47-4226-a1ac-ea3d5e7b7253@rjmcmahon.com> <949886c0f65025a626887d09a818c233@rjmcmahon.com> In-Reply-To: <949886c0f65025a626887d09a818c233@rjmcmahon.com> From: dan Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 11:42:00 -0600 Message-ID: To: rjmcmahon Cc: Bruce Perens , libreqos , Dave Taht via Starlink , Rpm , bloat Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000022670e05f6f3ddf3" Subject: Re: [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] [Bloat] On FiWi X-BeenThere: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 17:42:12 -0000 --00000000000022670e05f6f3ddf3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Trying to do all of what is currently wanted with 1 AP in a house is a huge part of the current problems with WiFi networks. MOAR power to try to overcome attenuation and reflections from walls so more power bleeds into the next home/suite/apartment etc. In the MSP space it's been rapidly moving to an AP per room with output turned down to minimum. Doing this we can reused 5Ghz channels 50ft away (through 2 walls etc...) without interference. One issue with the RRH model is that to accomplish this 'light bulb' model, ie you put a light bulb in the room you want light, is that it requires infrastructure cabling. 1 RRH AP in a house is already a failure today and accounts for most access complaints. Mesh radios have provided a bit of a gap fill, getting the access SSID closer to the device and backhauling on a separate channel with better (and likely fixed position ) antennas. regardless of my opinion on the full on failure of moving firewall off prem and the associated security risks and liabilities, single AP in a home is already a proven failure that has given rise to the mesh systems that are top sellers and top performers today. IMO, there was a scheme that gained a moment of fame and then died out of powerline networking and an AP per room off that powerline network. I have some of these deployed with mikrotik PLA adapters and the model works fantastically, but the powerline networking has evolved slowly so I'm seeing ~200Mbps practical speeds, and the mikrotik units have 802.11n radios in them so also a bit of a struggle for modern speeds. This model, with some development to get ~2.5Gbps practical speeds, and WiFi6 or WiFi7 per room at very low output power, is a very practical and deployable by consumers setup. WiFi7 also solves some pieces of this with AP coordination and co-transmission, sort of like a MUMIMO with multiple APs, and that's in early devices already (TPLINK just launched an AP). IMO, too many hurdles for RRH models from massive amounts of unfrastructure to build, homes and appartment buildings that need re-wired, security and liability concerns of homes and business not being firewall isolated by stakeholders of those networks. On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 11:32=E2=80=AFAM rjmcmahon wrote: > The 6G is a contiguous 1200MhZ. It has low power indoor (LPI) and very > low power (VLP) modes. The pluggable transceiver could be color coded to > a chanspec, then the four color map problem can be used by installers > per those chanspecs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_color_theorem > > There is no CTS with microwave "interference" The high-speed PHY rates > combined with low-density AP/STA ratios, ideally 1/1, decrease the > probability of time signal superpositions. The goal with wireless isn't > high densities but to unleash humans. A bunch of humans stuck in a dog > park isn't really being unleashed. It's the ability to move from block > to block so-to-speak. FiWi is cheaper than sidewalks, sanitation > systems, etc. > > The goal now is very low latency. Higher phy rates can achieve that and > leave the medium free the vast most of the time and shut down the RRH > too. Engineering extra capacity by orders of magnitude is better than > AQM. This has been the case in data centers for decades. Congestion? Add > a zero (or multiple by 10) > > Note: None of this is done. This is a 5-10 year project with zero > engineering resources assigned. > > Bob > > On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 5:11=E2=80=AFPM Robert McMahon > > wrote: > > > >> the AP needs to blast a CTS so every other possible conversation has > >> to halt. > > > > The wireless network is not a bus. This still ignores the hidden > > transmitter problem because there is a similar network in the next > > room. > --00000000000022670e05f6f3ddf3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Trying to do all of what is c= urrently wanted with 1 AP in a house is a huge part of the current problems= with WiFi networks.=C2=A0 MOAR power to try to overcome attenuation=C2=A0a= nd reflections from walls so more power bleeds into the next home/suite/apa= rtment etc.=C2=A0=C2=A0

In the MSP space it's been rapidly movin= g to an AP per room with output turned down to minimum.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Doing = this we can reused 5Ghz channels 50ft away (through 2 walls etc...) without= interference.

One issue with the RRH model is that to accomplish th= is 'light bulb' model, ie you put a light bulb in the room you want= light, is that it requires infrastructure cabling.=C2=A0 1 RRH AP in a hou= se is already a failure today and accounts for most access complaints.
<= br>Mesh radios have provided a bit of a gap fill, getting the access SSID c= loser to the device and backhauling on a separate channel with better (and = likely fixed position=C2=A0) antennas.=C2=A0

regardless of my opinio= n on the full on failure of moving firewall off prem and the associated sec= urity risks and liabilities, single AP in a home is already a proven failur= e that has given rise to the mesh systems that are top sellers and top perf= ormers today.

IMO, there was a scheme that gained a moment of fame a= nd then died out of powerline networking and an AP per room off that powerl= ine network.=C2=A0 I have some of these deployed with mikrotik PLA adapters= and the model works fantastically, but the powerline networking has evolve= d slowly so I'm seeing ~200Mbps practical speeds, and the mikrotik unit= s have 802.11n radios in them so also a bit of a struggle for modern speeds= .=C2=A0 =C2=A0This model, with some development to get ~2.5Gbps practical s= peeds, and WiFi6 or WiFi7 per room at very low output power, is a very prac= tical and deployable by consumers setup.

WiFi7 also solves some piec= es of this with AP coordination and co-transmission, sort of like a MUMIMO = with multiple APs, and that's in early devices already (TPLINK just lau= nched an AP).

IMO, too many hurdles for RRH models from massive amou= nts of unfrastructure to build, homes and appartment buildings that need re= -wired, security and liability concerns of homes and business not being fir= ewall isolated by stakeholders of those networks.=C2=A0=C2=A0
On Wed, = Mar 15, 2023 at 11:32=E2=80=AFAM rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com> wrote:
The 6G is a contiguous 1200MhZ. It ha= s low power indoor (LPI) and very
low power (VLP) modes. The pluggable transceiver could be color coded to a chanspec, then the four color map problem can be used by installers
per those chanspecs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F= our_color_theorem

There is no CTS with microwave "interference" The high-speed PHY = rates
combined with low-density AP/STA ratios, ideally 1/1, decrease the
probability of time signal superpositions. The goal with wireless isn't=
high densities but to unleash humans. A bunch of humans stuck in a dog
park isn't really being unleashed. It's the ability to move from bl= ock
to block so-to-speak. FiWi is cheaper than sidewalks, sanitation
systems, etc.

The goal now is very low latency. Higher phy rates can achieve that and leave the medium free the vast most of the time and shut down the RRH
too. Engineering extra capacity by orders of magnitude is better than
AQM. This has been the case in data centers for decades. Congestion? Add a zero (or multiple by 10)

Note: None of this is done. This is a 5-10 year project with zero
engineering resources assigned.

Bob
> On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 5:11=E2=80=AFPM Robert McMahon
> <rjmcm= ahon@rjmcmahon.com> wrote:
>
>> the AP needs to blast a CTS so every other possible conversation h= as
>> to halt.
>
> The wireless network is not a bus. This still ignores the hidden
> transmitter problem because there is a similar network in the next
> room.
--00000000000022670e05f6f3ddf3--