From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-yw1-x112a.google.com (mail-yw1-x112a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::112a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 435123CBC5; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 13:59:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-yw1-x112a.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-5418d54d77bso211630727b3.12; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 10:59:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1678903161; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=//3zi7Ckw8rwRRrYwkFFAsoUWj+JfYbFD6i5FwrmSRs=; b=O6e5G2KAtyK9L/CWHRX0p+JpzFOue8x25CvXE/IENEw46767ZqmHXlUHEw/i5cFsfe PWUqb8t/8TTHn4PFbT7Ufwbf/iZ7uvMd3XjqGoeHOz7Vgb7FPuxNXdPzuPm9FTHf98qc W1K4/iurPsRb11jZzmK7XIDfQdYzckRu8a8waEgW5BtU6l2GcsG9kHTzQTNUH5X87BDw djkwG4xAevy/uwS3ushRWcfyolEume7h0lBUH7VFgUamhJFA5D8tq1u60jAeeMBo+sA6 d/DYalEb3JE07Xdr7NPvOaZMerL3ncYBRoqTBRPpRYXNgJb3rHZ4wNmrUHSKvyQ41Nu/ uUVg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1678903161; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=//3zi7Ckw8rwRRrYwkFFAsoUWj+JfYbFD6i5FwrmSRs=; b=BHKYlNZFzEqwQeWTuONBzTPiFEZNHhmwqDrJXtEIrjVDeKbY4FSS0SKN6roBEs4Cex WwOtaDH2m1gGo56miqJsLZcABp0nObIoNNPydNnVxJXKgeQiG6zzWXnh9aaW5uHbvM9K 0jMb7XPcfSKWhM9gyn4NpblUvPRubbns1eGnIkG1ghUWRliFDiisWc2f5IagbLDxkXB3 jqGZRUXrbh14mWXEuH25J/nHISRU4/Y4wBHvlQxbAPXTIeg0pgWx5qZdWBxo36uVyC+M el2suIVO8ILgJjY4KmgWvrDh+Km9uJGCThvBOhNVVtHDqLAG5wi463WT+ULsNQdvS6AO l5Ug== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKVn8+8h+CxJEqq56+lpQHuaZIYCxpKS4/NcgWMic6n0nl6grBrE +tlrEZHh5ZLlFU8aaH2pj4cVeG1p0fOmQrNpc7bXwouWycE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set+jv537zSfNQczVBg7Zk6zEpEutYwdPa2qcLfLs49JhYW5dFD7E3R7qnhauKuPN8EuYFT2T0sZkNxkpwVHEKVU= X-Received: by 2002:a81:8d4e:0:b0:53f:a73e:8fd5 with SMTP id w14-20020a818d4e000000b0053fa73e8fd5mr524089ywj.1.1678903161416; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 10:59:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <22C819FA-DDD7-4B9B-8C09-8008D4273287@gmx.de> <5e7fac51071bdbb20837e72e7eedfc7c@rjmcmahon.com> <3f45d2a0b6e46d7b2775fb801e805f93@rjmcmahon.com> <70F71290-C6CB-4D19-8A88-F0F17C0BDDA2@gmx.de> <5e0cd693c4749d128dbb48d6c1129071@rjmcmahon.com> <2ab2983d-6beb-49cb-8c35-e481cbfdc7a3@Spark> <89c55d67-86f0-494d-a09e-c9aeebe46dc0@rjmcmahon.com> <70CBB03C-4394-4A93-BBB5-7449DC1AAF9C@gmx.de> <063359bf-5bf3-4688-852c-a7d81e6b80a3@rjmcmahon.com> <21f2252ff57e60dc52e7b9a6db8ba936@rjmcmahon.com> <8a04de1c-2d47-4226-a1ac-ea3d5e7b7253@rjmcmahon.com> <949886c0f65025a626887d09a818c233@rjmcmahon.com> <7d7d508f127db23c1904f7f08946d674@rjmcmahon.com> In-Reply-To: From: dan Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 11:59:10 -0600 Message-ID: To: Dave Taht Cc: rjmcmahon , Sebastian Moeller , Rpm , Bruce Perens , libreqos , Dave Taht via Starlink , bloat Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008c74ea05f6f41a38" Subject: Re: [Rpm] [Bloat] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] On FiWi X-BeenThere: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 17:59:22 -0000 --0000000000008c74ea05f6f41a38 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 11:53=E2=80=AFAM Dave Taht wr= ote: > On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 10:49=E2=80=AFAM rjmcmahon via Rpm > wrote: > > > > Agreed, AQM is like an emergency brake. Go ahead and keep it but hope t= o > > never need to use it. > > Tee-hee, flow queuing is like having a 1024 lanes that can be used for > everything from pedestrians, to bicycles, to trucks and trains. I > would settle for FQ everywhere over AQM. > > This has been a very fun conversation and I am struggling to keep up. > > I have sometimes thought that LiFi (https://lifi.co/) would suddenly > come out of the woodwork, > and we would be networking over that through the household. > > I'd rather say it's a traffic cop and has value in essentially any network. Keeping the costs down on end user hardware is fundamental, and those devices will behave however they want (ie badly). AQM is the 'roundabout' that keeps things flowing but each thing at an appropriate rate so it works well. There will *never be infinite bandwidth or even enough that no services saturate it. Even a very small town with everyone on a 1G turns into 20Tb of necessary capacity to avoid the usefulness of AQM. When likely 20Gb is sufficient. There has to be something that addresses the car going 180MPH on the freeway. That car requires everyone else to pull off the road to avoid disaster in the same way that data chews up a fifo buffer and wrecks the rest. AQM is the solution now, and more evolved AQM is most likely the answer for many many years to come. --0000000000008c74ea05f6f41a38 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 11:53=E2=80= =AFAM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.= com> wrote:
On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 10:49=E2=80=AFAM rjmcmahon via Rpm
<rpm@list= s.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> Agreed, AQM is like an emergency brake. Go ahead and keep it but hope = to
> never need to use it.

Tee-hee, flow queuing is like having a 1024 lanes that can be used for
everything from pedestrians, to bicycles, to trucks and trains. I
would settle for FQ everywhere over AQM.

This has been a very fun conversation and I am struggling to keep up.

I have sometimes thought that LiFi (https://lifi.co/) would suddenly
come out of the woodwork,
and we would be networking over that through the household.

I'd rather say it's a traffic cop and has val= ue in essentially any network.=C2=A0 Keeping the costs down on end user har= dware is fundamental, and those devices will behave however they want (ie b= adly).=C2=A0 AQM is the 'roundabout' that keeps things flowing but = each thing at an appropriate rate so it works well.=C2=A0 There will *never= be infinite bandwidth or even enough that no services saturate it.=C2=A0 = =C2=A0Even a very small town with everyone on a 1G turns into 20Tb of neces= sary capacity to avoid the usefulness of AQM.=C2=A0 When likely 20Gb is suf= ficient.

There has to be something that addresses the car going 180M= PH on the freeway.=C2=A0 That car requires everyone else to pull off the ro= ad to avoid disaster in the same way that data chews up a fifo buffer and w= recks the rest.=C2=A0 AQM is the solution now, and more evolved AQM is most= likely the answer for many many years to come.=C2=A0=C2=A0
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