From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-yb1-xb2d.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8117A3B2A4; Wed, 26 Oct 2022 11:42:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2d.google.com with SMTP id r3so19391894yba.5; Wed, 26 Oct 2022 08:42:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=UEhEswFn0PMCRc+hiQxlqwQdcVqx0R+wg1pLXUuwAx8=; b=Xwzwpw8wSJ5kTLV/HzhTtSoV2SvyoVuUrmkNgTgHqg7J07HZFw/GaY1PifZAW9BZ9R bPjeUFQeK9ENgLIh6Ze0eTmYHoilhkSCwRcKt2Pd+ktKkfklQ0qmCvZ+X78m6zAPYOgd jSHamuCxE0IYy/qLNznDTMkvd6oSS9zpvPnVNaScC+otsGoiwNUKCfAdeAiYHaWwbphF 7ahxugNK2OGawRHXTbO85nFx7CYSuHTB7tYdrDt2+RKPWIZ05XSnKEB/K7zrQswMartJ g1W163ZOew8tt8EbDjNKl43QYTK7PFQX/gjSeFBRDNCFpKAqnVyzIHEuVJt7aNc1CQEf Bcjw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=UEhEswFn0PMCRc+hiQxlqwQdcVqx0R+wg1pLXUuwAx8=; b=baAj4rE+g91iOq2ymZ+7QZwD9BfckLPX2DGNiyv9F3yp4j53gmzQ6bcZpiiOwA8Rim EpneKmDeVifQDvK9GCpr/mjaIKQXkGgPYDIcLpqw1CJIqyGJAvfOtO9fSa0/vijvTh9o NAfx5MNglIgxAeqanrIHWBeu3YyXmu9xEwTIC3n6ut6Ukm6CLfKPQFkEO2G6YzMCbpdO l8Hy0FHPXrzwTdDuzuuLvQgrnUs8kZgG1yrcah0O0E/vzRiFeGjBqtMuNaR8nk+8+HNr HAPDDzo1x6et926N6Tg18V8AWg+XejEubTQ52Fiowr9WZDQLdRAzKmssz3qGf1fpwhpJ S8Pg== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf3ruVeTxXYHI+GIwHVwSWdhh+/c1RsWa7pcU+0mhxGEU3nNJNAg vto4wPlOT6jGbcT/NMNuDPdnHFgK4l88pn0ZsRA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM4apNjHPm5jIBa/h8nogLLEpknhPGB+GTHS5Rr7DgAI5Du01weCFMCO+btcJa60ibomrVBp2aG72+KnKpYTVcs= X-Received: by 2002:a5b:ac4:0:b0:6bb:e351:d5e4 with SMTP id a4-20020a5b0ac4000000b006bbe351d5e4mr40165417ybr.78.1666798978872; Wed, 26 Oct 2022 08:42:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2C3CDDC5-DEE6-4F96-8B2F-60FF093EE412@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <2C3CDDC5-DEE6-4F96-8B2F-60FF093EE412@gmx.de> From: dan Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2022 09:42:48 -0600 Message-ID: To: Sebastian Moeller Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Dave_T=C3=A4ht?= , Rpm , libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000c399b05ebf1e152" Subject: Re: [Rpm] [LibreQoS] benton's consumer broadband label prototype X-BeenThere: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2022 15:42:59 -0000 --0000000000000c399b05ebf1e152 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My argument here is more about government inadequacies. Without government warning labels for internet service we have a massive streaming industry, gaming industry, home office workers, and so on. It's imperfect, but the fact that many of us complain about how kids are stuck in front of an xbox playing fortnite... well I guess it's working to some degree. Government's ability to regulate and protect consumers that already exists just isn't utilized, ie if you say you sell X, you give X else void contract and potential refunds of up-front costs. In the US at least, the government's decision making process has fed the 'bad' companies 3000-4000 per subscriber to build out services that don't address the underserved anyway. All of this money thrown out there by the government making their decisions and they've not moved the needle at all. IMO, very simple rules on advertising based on delivering what is claimed will force industry innovation. If a company says 'fast' and that term is too broad, then any attack on 'my latency is crap so this isn't fast' could lead to refunds. This is capitalism after all. Maybe companies should have to say 'best throughput' if they are trying to hyper their 1G or 2G service, they can't say 'fast' because that's not really a valid measure. 'great low latency services' instead of fast. We have the language to market properly but companies are allowed to market vaguely and it IMO contributes to consumer ignorance and misunderstanding. For our 'fiber like' services we literally pitch latencies to various gaming services and zoom relays. On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 9:27 AM Sebastian Moeller wrote: > Hi Dan, > > > > On Oct 26, 2022, at 17:09, dan via Rpm > wrote: > > > > Complete fail on a marketing perspective though, this would have to be > legislated and then handled by a third party. > > [SM] Well this is not intended to be a marketing tool, but a > regulatory tool to make sure the market works to the benefit of society (= I > understand that market members are incentivized to skew the market > mechanism to their advantage, this is why working markets need equally > working regulation, just like competitive sports require umpires/referees= ). > So yes legislation might well be required, but that would not be a sign o= f > failure, no? > > > No one is going to put out essentially a warning label that says 'poor= ' > or 'marginal' in any category for a product they sell. I wouldn't, and w= e > have LTE services to get to people with no other option and they are quit= e > happy, it would be detrimental to hand them a sheet that says that the > service is actually 'poor'. > > [SM] True, but e.g. in Germany ISPs are required by law to publis= h > their contracted rates in a pre-described fashion pre-sale and are actual= ly > held responsible to some degree to actually deliver the promised rates. > (Well, not really, but consumers can get a cost-free right to immediately > cancel their contract or reduce their payments commensurate to the > under-delivery of the contracted speed*). What happens here is not that > ISPs need to disclose shitty service but that the need to declare what th= ey > intend to deliver and they are simply held responsible to actually do so*= *. > > > *) The first option is already well established and works, the payment > reduction part is ATM still being worked out. > **) Unfortunately, the required numbers currently do not include latency > under load or even idle latency... there is still work ahead to convince > the regulatory agency of that. > > > Also, my trust in the government to decide what's good or bad... > laughable. > > [SM] Compared to bigger cooperations operating in "free-market" > capitalism? Really there is no alternative to government for that purpose= ... > > > You'd get things like on the example page. 903.5Mbps Median downloa= d > speed, 811.8 Median upload speed, gaming rating poor and video conferenci= ng > marginal, on Fios service. I know that's an example, but it's so spot on > what the government might do... > > [SM] See e.g.: > > https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Sachgebiete/Tele= kommunikation/Unternehmen_Institutionen/Anbieterpflichten/Kundenschutz/Tran= sparenzma=C3=9Fnahmen/templates_for_information_sheets.pdf;jsessionid=3D086= 8AE15965FB584C81008C96BA15E4B?__blob=3DpublicationFile&v=3D1 > and > > https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Sachgebiete/Tele= kommunikation/Unternehmen_Institutionen/Anbieterpflichten/Kundenschutz/Tran= sparenzma=C3=9Fnahmen/Instruction_for_drawing_up_PIS.pdf;jsessionid=3D0868A= E15965FB584C81008C96BA15E4B?__blob=3DpublicationFile&v=3D1 > > for how something similar might look in practice. > > > > > As an operator, I will not implement this unless forced to and then I'l= l > support lobby efforts to get it removed. > > [SM] Ad that is why we can't have nice things... ;) No really, I > agree this needs legislative/regulatory backing/teeth to work, but that i= s > not a failure but simply how our system developed. > > Regards > Sebastian > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 8:30 PM Dave Taht via LibreQoS < > libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > is actually... not bad. > > > > https://www.benton.org/blog/consumer-driven-broadband-label-design > > > > -- > > This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: > > > https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-698136666= 5607352320-FXtz > > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > _______________________________________________ > > LibreQoS mailing list > > LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos > > _______________________________________________ > > Rpm mailing list > > Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm > > --0000000000000c399b05ebf1e152 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My argument here is more about government inadequacies.=C2= =A0 Without government warning labels for internet service we have a massiv= e streaming industry, gaming industry, home office workers, and so on.=C2= =A0 It's imperfect, but the fact that many of=C2=A0us complain about ho= w kids are stuck in front of an xbox playing fortnite... well I guess it= 9;s working to some degree.=C2=A0

Government's ability to regul= ate and protect consumers that already exists just isn't utilized, ie i= f you say you sell X, you give X else void contract and potential refunds o= f up-front costs.=C2=A0 =C2=A0In the US at least, the government's deci= sion making process has fed the 'bad' companies 3000-4000 per subsc= riber to build out services that don't address the underserved anyway.= =C2=A0 All of this money thrown out there by the government making their de= cisions and they've not moved the needle at all.

IMO, very simpl= e rules on advertising based on delivering what is claimed will force indus= try innovation.=C2=A0 If a company says 'fast' and that term is too= broad, then any attack on 'my latency is crap so this isn't fast&#= 39; could lead to refunds.=C2=A0 This is capitalism after all.=C2=A0 =C2=A0= Maybe companies should have to say 'best throughput' if they are tr= ying to hyper their 1G or 2G service, they can't say 'fast' bec= ause that's not really a valid measure.=C2=A0 'great low latency se= rvices' instead of fast.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 We have the language to market pr= operly but companies are allowed to market vaguely and it IMO contributes t= o consumer ignorance=C2=A0and misunderstanding.

For our 'fiber l= ike' services we literally pitch latencies to various gaming services a= nd zoom relays.=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0

<= div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 9:27 AM Sebast= ian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de> = wrote:
Hi Dan,

> On Oct 26, 2022, at 17:09, dan via Rpm <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote= :
>
> Complete fail on a marketing perspective though, this would have to be= legislated and then handled by a third party.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [SM] Well this is not intended to be a marketin= g tool, but a regulatory tool to make sure the market works to the benefit = of society (I understand that market members are incentivized to skew the m= arket mechanism to their advantage, this is why working markets need equall= y working regulation, just like competitive sports require umpires/referees= ). So yes legislation might well be required, but that would not be a sign = of failure, no?

>=C2=A0 No one is going to put out essentially a warning label that says= 'poor' or 'marginal' in any category for a product they se= ll.=C2=A0 I wouldn't, and we have LTE services to get to people with no= other option and they are quite happy, it would be detrimental to hand the= m a sheet that says that the service is actually 'poor'.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [SM] True, but e.g. in Germany ISPs are require= d by law to publish their contracted rates in a pre-described fashion pre-s= ale and are actually held responsible to some degree to actually deliver th= e promised rates. (Well, not really, but consumers can get a cost-free righ= t to immediately cancel their contract or reduce their payments commensurat= e to the under-delivery of the contracted speed*). What happens here is not= that ISPs need to disclose shitty service but that the need to declare wha= t they intend to deliver and they are simply held responsible to actually d= o so**.


*) The first option is already well established and works, the payment redu= ction part is ATM still being worked out.
**) Unfortunately, the required numbers currently do not include latency un= der load or even idle latency... there is still work ahead to convince the = regulatory agency of that.

> Also, my trust in the government to decide what's good or bad... l= aughable.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [SM] Compared to bigger cooperations operating = in "free-market" capitalism? Really there is no alternative to go= vernment for that purpose...

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 You'd get things like on the example page.=C2=A0 903.= 5Mbps Median download speed, 811.8 Median upload speed, gaming rating poor = and video conferencing marginal, on Fios service.=C2=A0 I know that's a= n example, but it's so spot on what the government might do...

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [SM] See e.g.:
https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/Share= dDocs/Downloads/DE/Sachgebiete/Telekommunikation/Unternehmen_Institutionen/= Anbieterpflichten/Kundenschutz/Transparenzma=C3=9Fnahmen/templates_for_info= rmation_sheets.pdf;jsessionid=3D0868AE15965FB584C81008C96BA15E4B?__blob=3Dp= ublicationFile&v=3D1
and
https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedD= ocs/Downloads/DE/Sachgebiete/Telekommunikation/Unternehmen_Institutionen/An= bieterpflichten/Kundenschutz/Transparenzma=C3=9Fnahmen/Instruction_for_draw= ing_up_PIS.pdf;jsessionid=3D0868AE15965FB584C81008C96BA15E4B?__blob=3Dpubli= cationFile&v=3D1

for how something similar might look in practice.

>
> As an operator, I will not implement this unless forced to and then I&= #39;ll support lobby efforts to get it removed.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [SM] Ad that is why we can't have nice thin= gs... ;) No really, I agree this needs legislative/regulatory backing/teeth= to work, but that is not a failure but simply how our system developed.
Regards
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sebastian


>
> On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 8:30 PM Dave Taht via LibreQoS <libreqos@lists.buf= ferbloat.net> wrote:
>=C2=A0 is actually... not bad.
>
> https://www.benton.org/blog/c= onsumer-driven-broadband-label-design
>
> --
> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work:
> https:/= /www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-698136666560735232= 0-FXtz
> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
> _______________________________________________
> LibreQoS mailing list
> Li= breQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos<= /a>
> _______________________________________________
> Rpm mailing list
> Rpm@lis= ts.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm

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