From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-yw1-x1135.google.com (mail-yw1-x1135.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 747BC3CB41; Sat, 25 Mar 2023 18:50:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-yw1-x1135.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-5418d54d77bso102602317b3.12; Sat, 25 Mar 2023 15:50:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1679784646; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Q/BOnG61Uij2/w+7Ka+DHpDv5UDrlZWS+5tSxgww5Uc=; b=SMzATtwp7eKY9uM7smr+5/sV8QLV7kK5uXTa4hMi9B50xfPxtJcWVQzcG2dJyPLC2p 3KDLSGycukuVBtMPPGzB7BoETCzcWZFzIbtclLcs2EB5cg2uFrkjUeMdLVULx2MTRS4e Oer2tHN+hv06K7TjOCCv9mUaNMSB73nAXL0ykGpbc4al4Ria1kgSXRhsGYH0+nuc6C8H liAKaNk6TRKa/tCt+BbPmnv6Jm6v820EWZybf1UF9xqSjw7mv9EXfHW6rZqkuwbttD+t O/hMznarNI4Ae8311SEYW81RQTXS9AW6KP4V/wobcHBRMY2RO3lBC3Rdduqa+zbiMaOf MKRQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1679784646; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=Q/BOnG61Uij2/w+7Ka+DHpDv5UDrlZWS+5tSxgww5Uc=; b=ocETW34UKx0871baOC3NyTcnZqSa3E8cQ/oRO/Br1urc6976PC9j6UvNAQdGCuGDW7 26JsQDJLNbROwBC26Odt8ZRdmLZ6B+gJqv5HzobyoQ/XAtlzMX9/QONBJdJIt3sH6Atx 7qdwK9vEyVc8MyiT5CjXVu1ocFt0zAMw2h0arsmCo4sDN7kPz99u9tGLKZPH+T6ACDDF d4BaeRT/uyE9Gbubt/npIut3tkHVs0bA2NUHtlmJBlnI6m1XhepG3BkI2o0MYP62QD11 7/VYYCSgfD5BDiP6zSjAvcXj+cbsL/oFJxLIyazN0FvD7okCASI4CAm4kCQ70Is5nYPW db+A== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9dqmv7FvBzGFh/Np/cy8YCDsWN18eECK9kYt/JWBqtJvhsh/HV9 QNIkHPeVfeb4SCNFQdPGWsTW78csLBFP7/t/ZNI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350ag996u8ae/L06DfJxQQnHmFkGpWQ9sl0MAlZt4uCpqC38UuWcONq0NPJnu/We75K6qQQyI6yR2FUDoLJDlX3Q= X-Received: by 2002:a81:b617:0:b0:545:5b21:c667 with SMTP id u23-20020a81b617000000b005455b21c667mr3024675ywh.1.1679784645757; Sat, 25 Mar 2023 15:50:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1d6c10c9a692bb3f2869fb1b40fa449a@rjmcmahon.com> <569691b3e7dfc57bbf98c4fc168fc6cf@rjmcmahon.com> <2885829.1679221616@dyas> <20230321001019.GA4531@sunf68.rd.bbc.co.uk> <4295238B-FA57-49B6-B57B-78FFB2603B90@gmx.de> <8301258b8fffa18bd14279bff043dd03@rjmcmahon.com> <43bcbc338aecb44a1bef49489ab6f9c8@rjmcmahon.com> <60e70b637df76234639780ab08f25d82@rjmcmahon.com> <9edd011a1a6615470b34e0837896a15f@rjmcmahon.com> In-Reply-To: From: dan Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2023 16:50:34 -0600 Message-ID: To: Robert McMahon Cc: Bruce Perens , Sebastian Moeller , Dave Taht via Starlink , Frantisek Borsik , libreqos , Rpm , bloat Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001c0edd05f7c157d3" Subject: Re: [Rpm] [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat X-BeenThere: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2023 22:50:46 -0000 --0000000000001c0edd05f7c157d3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm not quite following on this. It's really not comcast's responsibility to do maintenance on old cables etc. Once installed, those are fixtures and the responsibility of the building owner. Comcast etc are only pulling wire in to enable their primary business of selling voice, tv, and data. All of these other pieces are clearly the responsibility of the property owner to install. Trying to put this sort of thing on an ISP would dramatically increase the cost of delivering services. I read the chat log and I would have closed it too. An HOA is a business in legal terms. for profit or non-profit, but still a business. The cost to bring all products to every home and business would dramatically increase the average cost of services. The CSR offered a 2Gbit service and you replied that you want the lower latencies of the 6Gbit service for your fire alarm? Firstly, why would the 2Gbit have lower latency than the 6Gbit, and secondly how much data do you think a fire alarm uses? As the CSR I would be telling jokes about you with my co-workers. I'm not meaning to be too antagonistic here, but this is a bit over the top don't you think? You're getting jostled around because you are demanding a service they don't offer at the address. You could have taken the 2Gbit plan offer and been installed in a few days and still had a product that is literally 1000x more than your fire circuit needs. The moment you started in on the Boston fire I'd have been done. Irrelevant and sensationalist. Fire alarms in all 50 states require either a hard wired telephone line or a redundant data link (ISP+Cell for example) so the who 6Gbit to prevent everyone from dying line is so over the top it made me switch teams mid-read. "I dont have what you are asking for" / "connect me to someone who does" is the "Karen: I want to talk to your manager" equivalent for an ISP's CSR to hear. I could continue with how absurd a lot of what has been said is but I don't want kicked out of the group for being unfriendly so I'll let it be. On Sat, Mar 25, 2023 at 4:04=E2=80=AFPM Robert McMahon wrote: > Hi Bruce, > > I think you may be the right guy to solve this. I too remember the days o= f > dry wire sold by the RBOCs. > > I found a structured wire fire alarm install to cost $100k for our > building or $20k per unit. The labor and materials is about $25k. The oth= er > $75k is liability related costs, similar to a bike helmet, $10 in parts, > $40 in insurance. So it's not labor nor equipment that drives the expense= s. > My opinion is poor people shouldn't have to pay for insurance to insuranc= e > companies, companies that figure figures for a living. > > A digression: I could do an LMR 600 passive cable system looped with > Wilkinson power dividers, patch antennas and nests to protect the egress > escape ladder for about $10 to $15K. Don't need an SLA. We've basically > priced protecting human lives to only rich people. > > We need to use technology and our cleverness to fix this version of > "expense bloat." > > Look at Boston public water for an example. Way too expensive to pipe > water in from 15 miles away in the early days. So people who did it claim= ed > alcoholism (and that "immorality") would be eliminated by providing clean > and pure potable public water. Alcholics would choose pathogen free wate= r > over spirits. Rich people got enough water for themselves and even for > their private fountains so society stopped this initiative. > > It was a motivated doctor who taught rich people that their health was > tied to public health. And public health was being impacted because > pathogens being spread to poor people who didn't get potable public water > would by addressed by ubiquitous potable water supplies. The fire chief w= as > put in charge. See Ties That Bind > > https://upittpress.org/books/9780822961475/ > > Now, in the U.S, most do get potable water even to flush a toilet. It's > taken for granted. > > I think it's on us to do similar for digital communication networks. > They're needed far beyond entertainment, and we need to get public safety > elements engaged too. > > Bob > On Mar 25, 2023, at 2:08 PM, Bruce Perens wrote: >> >> >> >> On Sat, Mar 25, 2023 at 1:44=E2=80=AFPM rjmcmahon via Starlink < >> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >> >>> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital >>> communications infrastructure as life support critical. >> >> >> When I was younger there was a standard way to do this. Fire alarms had = a >> dedicated pair directly to the fire department or a local alarm station. >> This wasn't dial-tone, it was a DC pair that would drop a trouble >> notification if DC was interrupted, and I think it would reverse polarit= y >> to indicate alarm. If DC was interrupted, that would also turn off the >> boiler in the building. >> >> Today my home fire alarms are wireless and have cellular back to their >> main Comcast connection, and detect CO, smoke, and temperature. This wou= ld >> not meet insurance requirements for a commercial building, they still ha= ve >> all of the sensors wired, with cellular backup. >> >> I don't think you are considering what life-support-critical digital >> communications would really cost. Start with metal conduit and >> fire-resistant wiring throughout the structure. Provide redundant power = for >> *every* fan-out box (we just had a 24-hour power interruption here due >> to storms). AT&T provides 4 hour power for "Lightspeed" tombstone boxes >> that fan out telephone, beyond that a truck has to drive out and plug in= a >> generator, or you are out of luck if it's a wide-are outage like we just >> had. Wire areas in a redundant loop rather than a tree. Supervise every >> home so that interruptions are serviced automatically. Provide a 4-hour >> SLA. >> >> The phone company used to do what you are asking for. The high prices >> this required are the main reason that everyone has jumped off of using = the >> legacy telco for telephony. >> > --0000000000001c0edd05f7c157d3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm not quite following on this.=C2=A0 It's really= not comcast's responsibility to do maintenance on old cables etc.=C2= =A0 Once installed, those are fixtures and the responsibility of the buildi= ng owner.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Comcast etc are only pulling wire in to enable their= primary business of selling voice, tv, and data.=C2=A0 All of these other = pieces are clearly the responsibility of the property owner to install.=C2= =A0 Trying to put this sort of thing on an ISP would dramatically increase = the cost of delivering services.

I read the chat log and I would hav= e closed it too.=C2=A0 An HOA is a business in legal terms. for profit or n= on-profit, but still a business.=C2=A0 The cost to bring all products to ev= ery home and business would dramatically increase the average cost of servi= ces.=C2=A0 The CSR offered a 2Gbit service and you replied that you want th= e lower latencies of the 6Gbit service for your fire alarm?=C2=A0 Firstly, = why would the 2Gbit have lower latency than the 6Gbit, and secondly how muc= h data do you think a fire alarm uses?=C2=A0 As the CSR I would be telling = jokes about you with my co-workers.=C2=A0 I'm not meaning to be too ant= agonistic here, but this is a bit over the top don't you think?=C2=A0 Y= ou're getting jostled around because you are demanding a service they d= on't offer at the address.=C2=A0 You could have taken the 2Gbit plan of= fer and been installed in a few days and still had a product that is litera= lly 1000x more than your fire circuit needs.=C2=A0 The moment you started i= n on the Boston fire I'd have been done.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Irrelevant and sen= sationalist.=C2=A0 Fire alarms in all 50 states require either a hard wired= telephone line or a redundant data link (ISP+Cell for example) so the who = 6Gbit to prevent everyone from dying line is so over the top it made me swi= tch teams mid-read.

"I dont have what you are asking for" = / "connect me to someone who does" is the "Karen: I want to = talk to your manager" equivalent for an ISP's CSR to hear.

= I could continue with how absurd a lot of what has been said is but I don&#= 39;t want kicked out of the group for being unfriendly so I'll let it b= e.

On Sat, Mar 25, 2023 at 4:04=E2=80=AFPM Robert McMahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com> wrote:
=
Hi Bruce,

I think you may be the right guy to solve this. I too rem= ember the days of dry wire sold by the RBOCs.

I found a structured wire fire alarm install to cost $100= k for our building or $20k per unit. The labor and materials is about $25k.= The other $75k is liability related costs, similar to a bike helmet, $10 i= n parts, $40 in insurance. So it's not labor nor equipment that drives = the expenses. My opinion is poor people shouldn't have to pay for insur= ance to insurance companies, companies that figure figures for a living.
A digression: I could do an LMR 600 passive cable system = looped with Wilkinson power dividers, patch antennas and nests to protect t= he egress escape ladder for about $10 to $15K. Don't need an SLA. We= 9;ve basically priced protecting human lives to only rich people.

<= /div>
We need to use technology and our cleverness to fix this = version of "expense bloat."

Look at Boston public water for an example. Way too expen= sive to pipe water in from 15 miles away in the early days. So people who d= id it claimed alcoholism (and that "immorality") would be elimina= ted by providing clean and pure potable public water.=C2=A0 Alcholics would= choose pathogen free water over spirits. Rich people got enough water for = themselves and even for their private fountains so society stopped this ini= tiative.

It was a motivated doctor who taught rich people that the= ir health was tied to public health. And public health was being impacted b= ecause pathogens being spread to poor people who didn't get potable pub= lic water would by addressed by ubiquitous potable water supplies. The fire= chief was put in charge. See Ties That Bind

https://upittpress.org/books/9780822961475/

Now, in the U.S, most do get potable water even to flush = a toilet. It's taken for granted.

I think it's on us to do similar for digital communic= ation networks. They're needed far beyond entertainment, and we need to= get public safety elements engaged too.

Bob
On Mar 25, 2023, at 2:08 PM, Bruce Perens <bruce@perens.com>= ; wrote:


On Sat, Mar 25, 2023 at 1:44=E2=80=AFPM rjmcmahon via Starlink < star= link@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital communica= tions infrastructure as life support critical.

When I was younger there was a standard way to do this. Fire alarms had = a dedicated pair directly to the fire department or a local alarm station. = This wasn't dial-tone, it was a DC pair that would drop a trouble notif= ication if DC was interrupted, and I think it would reverse polarity to ind= icate alarm. If DC was interrupted, that would=C2=A0also=C2=A0turn off the = boiler in the building.

Today my home fire alarms are wireless and have cellular back to their m= ain Comcast connection, and detect CO, smoke, and temperature. This would n= ot meet insurance requirements for a commercial building, they=C2=A0still h= ave all of the sensors wired, with cellular backup.

I don't think you are considering what life-support-critical digital= communications would really cost. Start with metal conduit and fire-resist= ant wiring throughout the structure. Provide redundant power for=20 every fan-out box (we just had a 24-hour power interruption here = due to storms). AT&T provides 4 hour power for "Lightspeed" t= ombstone boxes that fan out telephone, beyond that a truck has to drive out= and plug in a generator, or you are out of luck if it's a wide-are out= age like we just had. Wire areas in a redundant loop rather than a tree. Su= pervise every home so that interruptions are serviced automatically. Provid= e a 4-hour SLA.

The phone company used to do what you are asking for. The high prices th= is required are the main reason that everyone has jumped off of using the l= egacy telco for telephony.
--0000000000001c0edd05f7c157d3--