From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-oi1-x233.google.com (mail-oi1-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 572243B2A4 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 22:51:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x233.google.com with SMTP id n130so14232100oia.6 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 19:51:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=waveform.com; s=google; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=iF8j9aqQA21xlT5uakMexTernI1VUxeqlYeGTU9Mx24=; b=jcXHI6XKXieBhcWAH9YCihONMpEgAFVUuFOiqsXPF3n5qBx/6BlcXSuBpUYYkayEI/ fZsV1GAjnjiCXIl92q67h6RJHCk9Zyl8nPZMZxLgLrcyiKv6oVpsi5Q7WfFRUcAS8RUO OdSbWzyzA/lp+WRbkqp1b4mYZncut0meg2pOt94yOPoghHbFsoZN7M27vlNQj8/sS56Z wsQTVG6Ee4748sXVzEJzh+pLyqdJbChGGa4AT5djoVBF5/mm2Fmc8UkfIxgPgM4raaMz v2nTtCBdOWSAWrUIERCbF1mDMJiwPpcEBSrY3LPANDBzrD85nD8L6U2t2ahBxbSJ3prH JiHg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=iF8j9aqQA21xlT5uakMexTernI1VUxeqlYeGTU9Mx24=; b=aGnYuT+F9i5C1QEXmzp7UHfwgRBCxH92ByMs9rdiSG4L6RDThtx+melejcb8E3IS8S oDh4Icqz0J/ZbcL3gDvQzFAgt6awFhL71AZF5wsU0N9AVgmxSI9w6xjAFk2TbuHsBs+x uaTvxOwuIQRDIqGgOZM2xg1qcqRQDbs1pAX+6xIgCVyoQ80ue4pSv9vsc36mkTdqNa+O mCsqMN/1hW0psM59Xpq2Ot+UiySsrggUGav481BTr2LyegleuA/nlBTPUDpV3nx1GyWt /tEu7pRc1nbgmk2AwWfRXQ17mqBUyaX7WSnpARJ3z3u5KaYmw2kcMaCmTmCj4/K9G5Bt rjwg== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf3TnKegR6wlpQTN71nUtQzNhHifaYrJfnYQ7DjStE0FAgpW2HLs InMKn+uiZcyLa7yKqHpXhp/94DZdgcDyMycBWKLSXaAkLmSFlS9jZPTY0Nt4cAECwrLA3/VSDzU aDSfX4QVrGxVaT+RZqx7Paz+RzlybWsRCZD2GAzK6Q0XlisC7g8n57C2bY+M6sCSTwZl2zsHCsW ab6AIIL3rCXtBq X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM5ovVzc7hTiI0b66rEYlNxfay/S87+HEo70InQTuKFcRzdhS8qJmxDaHeGMS+RDKL7Le/SS1Rb9obYbwjIXCsQ= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:138e:b0:355:2b42:1580 with SMTP id c14-20020a056808138e00b003552b421580mr6147013oiw.91.1666061504461; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 19:51:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <938D9D45-DADA-4291-BD8A-84E4257CEE49@apple.com> In-Reply-To: From: Sina Khanifar Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 19:50:52 -0700 Message-ID: To: Dave Taht Cc: Cake List , Make-Wifi-fast , Rpm , Stuart Cheshire , bloat Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000025d18f05eb462c73" Subject: Re: [Rpm] [Bloat] [Make-wifi-fast] The most wonderful video ever about bufferbloat X-BeenThere: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 02:51:45 -0000 --00000000000025d18f05eb462c73 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Positive or negative, I can claim a bit of credit for this video :). We've been working with LTT on a few projects and we pitched them on doing something around bufferbloat. We've seen more traffic to our Waveforn test than ever before, which has been fun! On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 7:45 PM Dave Taht via Bloat < bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 5:02 PM Stuart Cheshire > wrote: > > > > On 9 Oct 2022, at 06:14, Dave Taht via Make-wifi-fast < > make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > > > > This was so massively well done, I cried. Does anyone know how to get > in touch with the ifxit folk? > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DUICh3ScfNWI > > > > I=E2=80=99m surprised that you liked this video. It seems to me that it= repeats > all the standard misinformation. The analogy they use is the standard > terrible example of waiting in a long line at a grocery store, and the > =E2=80=9Csolution=E2=80=9D is letting certain traffic =E2=80=9Cjump the l= ine, angering everyone > behind them=E2=80=9D. > > Accuracy be damned. The analogy to common experience resonates more. > > > > > Some quotes from the video: > > > > > it would be so much more efficient for them to let you skip the line > and just check out, especially since you=E2=80=99re in a hurry, but they= =E2=80=99re rudely > refusing > > I think the person with the cheetos pulling out a gun and shooting > everyone in front of him (AQM) would not go down well. > > > > to go back to our grocery store analogy this would be like if a worke= r > saw you standing at the back ... and either let you skip to the front of > the line or opens up an express lane just for you > > Actually that analogy is fairly close to fair queuing. The multiple > checker analogy is one of the most common analogies in queue theory > itself. > > > > > The video describes the problem of bufferbloat, and then describes the > same failed solution that hasn=E2=80=99t worked for the last three decade= s. > > Hmm? It establishes the scenario, explains the problem *quickly*, > disses gamer routers for not getting it right.. *points to an > accurate test*, and then to the ideas and products that *actually > work* with "smart queueing", with a screenshot of the most common > (eero's optimize for gaming and videoconferencing), and fq_codel and > cake *by name*, and points folk at the best known solution available, > openwrt. > > Bing, baddabang, boom. Also the comments were revealing. A goodly > percentage already knew the problem, more than a few were inspired to > take the test, > there was a whole bunch of "Aha!" success stories and 360k views, > which is more people than we've ever been able to reach in for > example, a nanog conference. > > I loved that folk taking the test actually had quite a few A results, > without having had to do anything. At least some ISPs are getting it > more right now! > > At this point I think gamers in particular know what "brands" we've > tried to establish - "Smart queues", "SQM", "OpenWrt", fq_codel and > now "cake" are "good" things to have, and are stimulating demand by > asking for them, It's certainly working out better and better for > evenroute, firewalla, ubnt and others, and I saw an uptick in > questions about this on various user forums. > > I even like that there's a backlash now of people saying "fixing > bufferbloat doesn't solve everything" - > > > Describing the obvious simple-minded (wrong) solution that any normal > person would think of based on their personal human experience waiting in > grocery stores and airports, is not describing the solution to bufferbloa= t. > The solution to bufferbloat is not that if you are privileged then you ge= t > to =E2=80=9Cskip to the front of the line=E2=80=9D. The solution to buffe= rbloat is that > there is no line! > > I like the idea of a guru floating above a grocery cart with a better > string of explanations, explaining > > - "no, grasshopper, the solution to bufferbloat is no line... at all". > > > > > With grocery stores and airports people=E2=80=99s arrivals are independ= ent and > not controlled. There is no way for a grocery store or airport to generat= e > backpressure to tell people to wait at home when a queue begins to form. > The key to solving bufferbloat is generating timely backpressure to preve= nt > the queue forming in the first place, not accepting a huge queue and then > deciding who deserves special treatment to get better service than all th= e > other peons who still have to wait in a long queue, just like before. > > I am not huge on the word "backpressure" here. Needs to signal the > other side to slow down, is more accurate. So might say timely > signalling rather than timely backpressure? > > Other feedback I got was that the video was too smarmy (I agree), > different audiences than gamers need different forms of outreach... > > but to me, winning the gamers has always been one of the most > important things, as they make a lot of buying decisions, and they > benefit the most for > fq and packet prioritization as we do today in gamer routers and in > cake + qosify. > > maybe that gets in the way of more serious markets. Certainly I would > like another video explaining what goes wrong with videoconferencing. > > > > > > > > > > Stuart Cheshire > > > > > -- > This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: > > https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-698136666= 5607352320-FXtz > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > --00000000000025d18f05eb462c73 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Positive or negative, I can claim a bit of credit for thi= s video :). We've been working with LTT on a few projects and we pitche= d them on doing something around bufferbloat. We've seen more traffic t= o our Waveforn test than ever before, which has been fun!=C2=A0
<= br>
On Mon,= Oct 17, 2022 at 7:45 PM Dave Taht via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 5:02 PM Stuart Cheshir= e <cheshire@appl= e.com> wrote:
>
> On 9 Oct 2022, at 06:14, Dave Taht via Make-wifi-fast <make-wifi-fas= t@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> > This was so massively well done, I cried. Does anyone know how to= get in touch with the ifxit folk?
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DUICh3ScfNWI=
>
> I=E2=80=99m surprised that you liked this video. It seems to me that i= t repeats all the standard misinformation. The analogy they use is the stan= dard terrible example of waiting in a long line at a grocery store, and the= =E2=80=9Csolution=E2=80=9D is letting certain traffic =E2=80=9Cjump the li= ne, angering everyone behind them=E2=80=9D.

Accuracy be damned. The analogy to common experience resonates more.

>
> Some quotes from the video:
>
> > it would be so much more efficient for them to let you skip the l= ine and just check out, especially since you=E2=80=99re in a hurry, but the= y=E2=80=99re rudely refusing

I think the person with the cheetos pulling out a gun and shooting
everyone in front of him (AQM) would not go down well.

> > to go back to our grocery store analogy this would be like if a w= orker saw you standing at the back ... and either let you skip to the front= of the line or opens up an express lane just for you

Actually that analogy is fairly close to fair queuing. The multiple
checker analogy is one of the most common analogies in queue theory
itself.

>
> The video describes the problem of bufferbloat, and then describes the= same failed solution that hasn=E2=80=99t worked for the last three decades= .

Hmm? It establishes the scenario, explains the problem *quickly*,
disses gamer routers for not getting it right..=C2=A0 *points to an
accurate test*, and then to the ideas and products that *actually
work* with "smart queueing", with a screenshot of the most common=
(eero's optimize for gaming and videoconferencing), and fq_codel and cake *by name*, and points folk at the best known solution available,
openwrt.

Bing, baddabang, boom. Also the comments were revealing. A goodly
percentage already knew the problem, more than a few were inspired to
take the test,
there was a whole bunch of "Aha!" success stories and 360k views,=
which is more people than we've ever been able to reach in for
example, a nanog conference.

I loved that folk taking the test actually had quite a few A results,
without having had to do anything. At least some ISPs are getting it
more right now!

At this point I think gamers in particular know what "brands" we&= #39;ve
tried to establish - "Smart queues", "SQM", "OpenW= rt", fq_codel and
now "cake" are "good" things to have, and are stimulati= ng demand by
asking for them,=C2=A0 =C2=A0It's certainly working out better and bett= er for
evenroute, firewalla, ubnt and others, and I saw an uptick in
questions about this on various user forums.

I even like that there's a backlash now of people saying "fixing bufferbloat doesn't solve everything" -

>=C2=A0 Describing the obvious simple-minded (wrong) solution that any n= ormal person would think of based on their personal human experience waitin= g in grocery stores and airports, is not describing the solution to bufferb= loat. The solution to bufferbloat is not that if you are privileged then yo= u get to =E2=80=9Cskip to the front of the line=E2=80=9D. The solution to b= ufferbloat is that there is no line!

I like the idea of a guru floating above a grocery cart with a better
string of explanations, explaining

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- "no, grasshopper, the solution to bufferbloat is no lin= e... at all".

>
> With grocery stores and airports people=E2=80=99s arrivals are indepen= dent and not controlled. There is no way for a grocery store or airport to = generate backpressure to tell people to wait at home when a queue begins to= form. The key to solving bufferbloat is generating timely backpressure to = prevent the queue forming in the first place, not accepting a huge queue an= d then deciding who deserves special treatment to get better service than a= ll the other peons who still have to wait in a long queue, just like before= .

I am not huge on the word "backpressure" here. Needs to signal th= e
other side to slow down, is more accurate. So might say timely
signalling rather than timely backpressure?

Other feedback I got=C2=A0 was that the video was too smarmy (I agree),
different audiences than gamers need different forms of outreach...

but to me, winning the gamers has always been one of the most
important things, as they make a lot of buying decisions, and they
benefit the most for
fq and packet prioritization as we do today in gamer routers and in
cake + qosify.

maybe that gets in the way of more serious markets. Certainly I would
like another video explaining what goes wrong with videoconferencing.






>
> Stuart Cheshire
>


--
This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work:
https://www.= linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXt= z
Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@list= s.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
--00000000000025d18f05eb462c73--