From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-lf1-x12f.google.com (mail-lf1-x12f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 833613CB38 for ; Tue, 6 Dec 2022 14:17:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-lf1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id b13so14300653lfo.3 for ; Tue, 06 Dec 2022 11:17:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=rrkFxqpx/Yo1N3vUmcmmvc3bSzm1nXgdfRcP1NNiuIg=; b=aQQvHMOer4d3RJ6WjFHqhi6kDn9hcH32XjMBHFlDCC2DSm4j+NDKP5q3mqDjBFz6YL F/1Rz4d6F/KQWwhsmHenzxPd1/fEmK1Ew3tDN1ZOa1UZJWEaOg/a2BNY1VTR0Lyt3/Lb z/Ie2LZGDCmFZt3BAlWdk/V48kri3rjGheF2c= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=rrkFxqpx/Yo1N3vUmcmmvc3bSzm1nXgdfRcP1NNiuIg=; b=RkZGjmA1CFsCX9bWqWluReGbqgZNJXPkT8sQos98q7gSIfQh2S5dGwNZRMXpwB4Dry NweyBaIlwjOsZk0FngI2m3H9lr7YYjDyOTlKVwuDBYjRcvNg3Pa9jej5ux4zUxaZV71a z3ftpgMIKrJBgm2Mgu1ZzSU9h2Cr0XWyzrO/4OWNMSCf+6KGfgQyLfUaxVaKdUE74gct Yn0rBMEHGkaGoTyUU+FONSZBFkdLnKL9GKJ5maJSVJmI2vQYEjqQJUwMyd1ZJKwVMRXl pBn2fHCMwF1pq+DBXNQDlWCh53avffPdAC9L6RsDC1H2ZAy3M4/mJ2Kyl0yiabfjDW/m 0vWQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ANoB5pnnsJffzAQOmdtWRdSOZiSKlEEN6vsQbfA+ytZvzVqFgAtlKlTt XzWoQLp0eaf6h9dvysWjAibIGfKGZmv+f00mqJzoAyb/vnnM7ZC+8h9CaeSOcYH4FjuMJugTmXv KaKxa+3XxT59zsF7hBQ9wRC/4Dxw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA0mqf7gMwV5CMvFym1g3fF360yHlrrLzmrh2q3KbGap75fsTMcac9CZ4I6+2u/j7srNBstQ2wAudsvpVkI/Blgd/+0= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:4a8c:0:b0:4b5:4a26:b7a8 with SMTP id l12-20020ac24a8c000000b004b54a26b7a8mr8003985lfp.134.1670354237086; Tue, 06 Dec 2022 11:17:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <938D9D45-DADA-4291-BD8A-84E4257CEE49@apple.com> <372838.1666216016@dyas> In-Reply-To: <372838.1666216016@dyas> From: Bob McMahon Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2022 11:17:05 -0800 Message-ID: To: Michael Richardson Cc: Stuart Cheshire , =?UTF-8?Q?Dave_T=C3=A4ht?= , Rpm , Make-Wifi-fast , Cake List , bloat Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="000000000000f8f9b905ef2da675" Subject: Re: [Rpm] [Make-wifi-fast] [Bloat] The most wonderful video ever about bufferbloat X-BeenThere: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2022 19:17:18 -0000 --000000000000f8f9b905ef2da675 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f3b81405ef2da69d" --000000000000f3b81405ef2da69d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stuart's analogy seems better to me as it allows people to do something else while waiting for an under-provisioned resource. And they may decide that the wait isn't worth it at all. If the constraint moves to "entering into the store" or "arrival rate to the grocery store doors" then the queue just builds up in the parking lot vs the cashiers' lines. No real difference. Bob On Tue, Dec 6, 2022 at 10:45 AM Michael Richardson via Make-wifi-fast < make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > Stuart Cheshire via Bloat wrote: > >> I think the person with the cheetos pulling out a gun and shooting > >> everyone in front of him (AQM) would not go down well. > > > Which is why starting with a bad analogy (people waiting in a groce= ry > > store) inevitably leads to bad conclusions. > > > If we want to struggle to make the grocery store analogy work, > perhaps > > we show people checking some grocery store app on their smartphone > > before they leave home, and if they see that a long line is beginni= ng > > to form they wait until later, when the line is shorter. The > challenge > > is not how to deal with a long queue when it=E2=80=99s there, it is= how to > > avoid a long queue in the first place. > > Maybe if we regard the entire grocery store as the "pipe", then we would > realize that the trick to reducing checkout lines is to move the constrai= nt > from exiting, to entering the store :-) > > Then the different times you are in the store because you have different > amounts of shopping to do, etc. and you get txt messages from spouse to > remember to pick up X, and that somehow is an analogy to the various > "PowerBoost" cable and LTE/5G systems that provide for inconsistent > bandwidth. > > (There are various pushes to actually do this, as the experience from COV= ID > was that having fewer people in the store pleased many people.) > > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- > > > > _______________________________________________ > Make-wifi-fast mailing list > Make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast --=20 This electronic communication and the information and any files transmitted= =20 with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for=20 the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain= =20 information that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy= =20 laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are=20 not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the=20 e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use,=20 copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of= =20 this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error,= =20 please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and= =20 destroy any printed copy of it. --000000000000f3b81405ef2da69d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Stuart's analogy seems better to me as it allows peopl= e to do something else while waiting for an under-provisioned resource. And= they may decide that the wait isn't worth it at all. If the constraint= moves to "entering into the store" or "arrival rate to the = grocery store doors" then the queue just builds up in the parking lot = vs the cashiers' lines. No real difference.

Bob

On Tue, Dec 6, 20= 22 at 10:45 AM Michael Richardson via Make-wifi-fast <make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net<= /a>> wrote:
<= br> Stuart Cheshire via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> I think the person with the cheetos pulling out a gu= n and shooting
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> everyone in front of him (AQM) would not go down wel= l.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Which is why starting with a bad analogy (people waiting= in a grocery
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > store) inevitably leads to bad conclusions.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > If we want to struggle to make the grocery store analogy= work, perhaps
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > we show people checking some grocery store app on their = smartphone
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > before they leave home, and if they see that a long line= is beginning
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > to form they wait until later, when the line is shorter.= The challenge
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > is not how to deal with a long queue when it=E2=80=99s t= here, it is how to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > avoid a long queue in the first place.

Maybe if we regard the entire grocery store as the "pipe", then w= e would
realize that the trick to reducing checkout lines is to move the constraint=
from exiting, to entering the store :-)

Then the different times you are in the store because you have different amounts of shopping to do, etc. and you get txt messages from spouse to
remember to pick up X, and that somehow is an analogy to the various
"PowerBoost" cable and LTE/5G systems that provide for inconsiste= nt
bandwidth.

(There are various pushes to actually do this, as the experience from COVID=
was that having fewer people in the store pleased many people.)


--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-



_______________________________________________
Make-wifi-fast mailing list
M= ake-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wif= i-fast

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