From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-lj1-x22d.google.com (mail-lj1-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7591F3B29D for ; Mon, 10 Oct 2022 12:45:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22d.google.com with SMTP id bn8so13914017ljb.6 for ; Mon, 10 Oct 2022 09:45:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Fydlj5w3HWD5jw+clPjQdqrt3u8wjY3dt2Ucpu8YHKY=; b=gFMvSDuR3MvOQ9/d82IIAo0Q5xJvbHuatxsL/qlK4pEhmFQYHLZMP2jhtEfJU2gknn J+pjCf0JFIy1QvGuHK307OYHfgyo4EkNEs6cEv5yRcAWaXd8DIzUVQu/y4xf1eMSKMxL mV7L0ijfXo1bTujb3VivIUSxIFECkGkqUn3Mo= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=Fydlj5w3HWD5jw+clPjQdqrt3u8wjY3dt2Ucpu8YHKY=; b=Q1j8Lhdwisr0pDHRLmkrEg1Twr4fQDBQiKwjlGcMbaEWbM9snIFnPJeiKrky4QgaI+ X5XBLu5ueIQU49Yg5Z0dj2Rc/kz9Vs5stZ9iRrmZUMdaVWpwseOmUt2VRXg3h//F92hw TihxvjE7CX/RTudte3vWPV++/NLXnHx7iRuER7KagHKK9KTxUkdVkalZhYOfv7avEijJ REFsyxZcOkafm4KNpuXwf+C+pKbJN95OWBJG4+V1GrSJAlkE9cQVClGMQIlAMHZ6VkvR u7t8Sq6m9Ak+BKi/2rpDZ/wlikneNhFS50dWoSoG9w4sCMwvQOUGWBLW7hV73S5NIvvt cpmw== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf1M98cMXruuCmh3J+B246TMz0VQfJ9jH8P0FVPKQfpzZbin1x9P ienSssgaNc2lItBk7GFhXAZOAt5ke4ln03vpuAkbHASw7LAVUonCyBcC0Vwjeoiiyo8TNWKu+DE ryFmjw3y8Co0JNzSbxr1qMFuGvBduDufg X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM5H/9Bm3VGYegVPBlPVu5ObR+zyZJOPeKXKEWGg70jWLYV0s03zXuRC/Uhhitc8rZkdKDTWHbBLzoe+Fqrzlwc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:114a:b0:25d:5ae6:42a4 with SMTP id h10-20020a05651c114a00b0025d5ae642a4mr7082278ljo.255.1665420343081; Mon, 10 Oct 2022 09:45:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <72674884-9E0D-4645-B5F5-C593CC45A8F0@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <72674884-9E0D-4645-B5F5-C593CC45A8F0@gmx.de> From: Bob McMahon Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2022 09:45:31 -0700 Message-ID: To: Sebastian Moeller Cc: Taraldsen Erik , Rpm , Make-Wifi-fast , Cake List , bloat Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="000000000000f9dc7c05eab0e3f7" Subject: Re: [Rpm] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cake] [Bloat] The most wonderful video ever about bufferbloat X-BeenThere: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2022 16:45:44 -0000 --000000000000f9dc7c05eab0e3f7 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f3d93405eab0e3b6" --000000000000f3d93405eab0e3b6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I think conflating bufferbloat with latency misses the subtle point in that bufferbloat is a measurement in memory units more than a measurement in time units. The first design flaw is a queue that is too big. This youtube video analogy doesn't help one understand this important point. Another subtle point is that the video assumes AQM as the only solution and ignores others, i.e. pacing at the source(s) and/or faster service rates. A restaurant that let's one call ahead to put their name on the waitlist doesn't change the wait time. Just because a transport layer slowed down and hasn't congested a downstream queue doesn't mean the e2e latency performance will meet the gaming needs as an example. The delay is still there it's just not manifesting itself in a shared queue that may or may not negatively impact others using that shared queue. Bob On Mon, Oct 10, 2022 at 2:40 AM Sebastian Moeller via Make-wifi-fast < make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > Hi Erik, > > > > On Oct 10, 2022, at 11:32, Taraldsen Erik > wrote: > > > > On 10/10/2022, 11:09, "Sebastian Moeller" wrote: > > > > Nice! > > > >> On Oct 10, 2022, at 07:52, Taraldsen Erik via Cake < > cake@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >> > >> It took about 3 hours from the video was release before we got the > first request to have SQM on the CPE's we manage as a ISP. Finally > getting some customer response on the issue. > > > > [SM] Will you be able to bump these requests to higher-ups and at > least change some perception of customer demand for tighter latency > performance? > > > > That would be the hope. > > [SM} Excellent, hope this plays out as we wish for. > > > > We actually have fq_codel implemented on the two latest generations of > DSL routers. Use sync rate as input to set the rate. Works quite well. > > [SM] Cool, if I might ask what fraction of the sync are you > setting the traffic shaper for and are you doing fine grained overhead > accounting (or simply fold that into a grand "de-rating"-factor)? > > > > There is also a bit of traction around speedtest.net's inclusion of > latency under load internally. > > [SM] Yes, although IIUC they are reporting the interquartile mean > for the two loaded latency estimates, which is pretty conservative and only > really "triggers" for massive consistently elevated latency; so I expect > this to be great for detecting really bad cases, but I fear it is too > conservative and will make a number of problematic links look OK. But hey, > even that is leaps and bounds better than the old only idle latency report. > > > > My hope is that some publication in Norway will pick up on that score > and do a test and get some mainstream publicity with the results. > > [SM] Inside the EU the challenge is to get national regulators and > the BEREC to start bothering about latency-under-load at all, "some > mainstream publicity" would probably help here as well. > > Regards > Sebastian > > > > > > -Erik > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Make-wifi-fast mailing list > Make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast -- This electronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed copy of it. --000000000000f3d93405eab0e3b6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think conflating bufferbloat with latency misses the sub= tle point in that bufferbloat is a measurement in memory units more than a = measurement in time units. The first design flaw is a queue=C2=A0that is to= o big. This youtube video analogy=C2=A0doesn't help one understand=C2= =A0this important point.=C2=A0

Another subtle point is that the vide= o assumes AQM as the only solution and ignores others, i.e. pacing at the s= ource(s) and/or faster service rates. A restaurant=C2=A0that let's one = call ahead to put their name on the waitlist doesn't change the wait ti= me. Just because a transport layer slowed down and hasn't congested a d= ownstream queue doesn't mean the e2e latency performance will meet the = gaming needs as an example. The delay is still there it's just not mani= festing itself in a shared queue that may or may not negatively impact othe= rs using that shared queue.

Bob

=C2=A0

On Mon, Oct 10, 2022 at= 2:40 AM Sebastian Moeller via Make-wifi-fast <make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net>= wrote:
Hi Erik,=


> On Oct 10, 2022, at 11:32, Taraldsen Erik <erik.taraldsen@telenor.no> wr= ote:
>
> On 10/10/2022, 11:09, "Sebastian Moeller" <moeller0@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Nice!
>
>> On Oct 10, 2022, at 07:52, Taraldsen Erik via Cake <cake@lists.bufferbloat= .net> wrote:
>>
>> It took about 3 hours from the video was release before we got the= first request to have SQM on the CPE's=C2=A0 we manage as a ISP.=C2=A0= Finally getting some customer response on the issue.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[SM] Will you be able to bump these requests= to higher-ups and at least change some perception of customer demand for t= ighter latency performance?
>
> That would be the hope.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [SM} Excellent, hope this plays out as we wish = for.


>=C2=A0 We actually have fq_codel implemented on the two latest generati= ons of DSL routers.=C2=A0 Use sync rate as input to set the rate.=C2=A0 Wor= ks quite well.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [SM] Cool, if I might ask what fraction of the = sync are you setting the traffic shaper for and are you doing fine grained = overhead accounting (or simply fold that into a grand "de-rating"= -factor)?


> There is also a bit of traction around speedtest.net's inclusion of= latency under load internally.=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [SM] Yes, although IIUC they are reporting the = interquartile mean for the two loaded latency estimates, which is pretty co= nservative and only really "triggers" for massive consistently el= evated latency; so I expect this to be great for detecting really bad cases= , but I fear it is too conservative and will make a number of problematic l= inks look OK. But hey, even that is leaps and bounds better than the old on= ly idle latency report.


> My hope is that some publication in Norway will pick up on that score = and do a test and get some mainstream publicity with the results.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [SM] Inside the EU the challenge is to get nati= onal regulators and the BEREC to start bothering about latency-under-load a= t all, "some mainstream publicity" would probably help here as we= ll.

Regards
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sebastian


>
> -Erik
>
>
>

_______________________________________________
Make-wifi-fast mailing list
M= ake-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wif= i-fast

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