From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-lf1-x135.google.com (mail-lf1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A612C3CB37 for ; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 13:06:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x135.google.com with SMTP id y5so22087446lfl.4 for ; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 10:06:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=e2BhOjoFYzgWURIPFUq0Ac1RFDN9J1uxZHIFQgE2WNk=; b=V+ONEPhhs+3zYvi9G0gtRgHbcfM9dUg0moPjUP4bDR4zpHJL8F4HnxWs2UyR8q5+5P gPJQnr8qCuHXFAOOYAy5vAGitEnRJA8Azu1XgkmLK8eFI8LDqJLHSzHCMGIZYhCF2yJV hB+QtQk6GXQb3XAyP42lI1zwy1V6x5DwSkkuY= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=e2BhOjoFYzgWURIPFUq0Ac1RFDN9J1uxZHIFQgE2WNk=; b=2y9OjWa7Ops9hSYZ06VYkwR7ITEknQYg7Uclq/b2mKztM9r9Lw0OBajWY8g1UbWa3D rNKUiVnWqHYxBp/6alsssAE1Ylo7EFHcXSSnbwVMZ8r6RoUOuD1ZRQdZKjaHrWdvrVHy Iccu6g9ADYW1tT6tQMG8KTPJrBHWvVT0ffD2kHxq9xK1VIArsl9Ua3qlSuVzNMQPWyxZ 5FK/N07tXUhUPoi3ocE7frx/9fzezkXedbCC3SG39mhlgokiq1lPAYmX6Wl7q6fngqHs afDzeUK/LsET987Tn+2ZQjls7AUL/4g8v/m8rWogK4vrXQTCUxziJIA95Xw7vPRc+dSS zyzA== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf3eK8Z98xAA3XQs1QmdP/Wgm8K7Mt4TTIxJ6sxicLhiGZWJmEvf U+vm2Kda+u9jrR2gOReTzmoYa9xG6VpajJ5bxeNYvfQkGJVAD2NQCQpISLu72xnDE1tPkECyMXj Z0koB2ZKVcc/k0Spd36wPFczJnlA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM7NfSJmSgMcRIqeQB1GQV6xRe2VnmwjP8pOhzPRxl+iML7gcbo5s5YHJ35thYJXyRBjeWAdtWBdWGqptP/FtHQ= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:55a8:0:b0:4a2:5d5a:120d with SMTP id y8-20020ac255a8000000b004a25d5a120dmr9315172lfg.134.1665507962435; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 10:06:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <72674884-9E0D-4645-B5F5-C593CC45A8F0@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: From: Bob McMahon Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 10:05:50 -0700 Message-ID: To: Rich Brown Cc: David Lang , Cake List , Make-Wifi-fast , Rpm , bloat Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="0000000000007d977105eac54aab" Subject: Re: [Rpm] [Bloat] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cake] The most wonderful video ever about bufferbloat X-BeenThere: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 17:06:04 -0000 --0000000000007d977105eac54aab Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000078dcb905eac54a27" --00000000000078dcb905eac54a27 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I agree that bufferbloat awareness is a good thing. The issue I have is the approach - ask consumers to "detect it" and replace a device with a new one, that may or may not, meet all the needs of the users. Better is that network engineers "design bloat out" from the beginning starting by properly sizing queues to service jitter, and for WiFi, to also enable aggregation techniques that minimize TXOP consumption. Bob On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 6:57 AM Rich Brown wrote: > > > On Oct 10, 2022, at 8:05 PM, Bob McMahon via Rpm < > rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > > I think conflating bufferbloat with latency misses the subtle point in > that > > bufferbloat is a measurement in memory units more than a measurement in > > time units. > > > Yes, but... I am going to praise this video, even as I encourage all the > techies to be sure that they have the units correct. > > I've been yammering about the evils of latency/excess queueing for 10 > years on my blog, in forums, etc. I have not achieved anywhere near the > notoriety of this video (almost a third of a million views). > > I am delighted that there's an engaging, mass-market Youtube video that > makes the case that bufferbloat even exists. > > Rich > -- This electronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed copy of it. --00000000000078dcb905eac54a27 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I agree that bufferbloat awareness is a good thing. The is= sue I have is the approach - ask consumers to "detect it" and rep= lace a device with a new one, that may or may not, meet all the needs of th= e users.

Better is that network engineers "design bloat out&qu= ot; from the beginning starting by properly sizing queues to service jitter= , and for WiFi, to also enable=C2=A0aggregation=C2=A0techniques that minimi= ze TXOP consumption.

Bob

<= div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 6:57 AM Rich B= rown <richb.hanover@gmail.com= > wrote:
=


On Oct 10, 2022, at 8:05 PM, Bob McMahon via Rpm <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.n= et> wrote:

> I think conflating bufferbloat with latency misses the subtle poi= nt in that
> bufferbloat is a measurement in memory units more than a mea= surement in
> time units.

Yes, bu= t... I am going to praise this video, even as I encourage all the techies t= o be sure that they have the units correct.

I'= ve been yammering about the evils of latency/excess queueing for 10 years o= n my blog, in forums, etc. I have not achieved anywhere near the notoriety = of this video (almost a third of a million views).

I am delighted that there's an engaging, mass-market Youtube video tha= t makes the case that bufferbloat even exists.=C2=A0

Rich

This ele= ctronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it= , or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use o= f the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain informat= ion that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or= otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the in= tended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the= intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distrib= uting, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is st= rictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please return the = e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed= copy of it. --00000000000078dcb905eac54a27-- --0000000000007d977105eac54aab Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIIQagYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIQWzCCEFcCAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADALBgkqhkiG9w0BBwGg gg3BMIIFDTCCA/WgAwIBAgIQeEqpED+lv77edQixNJMdADANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADBMMSAwHgYD VQQLExdHbG9iYWxTaWduIFJvb3QgQ0EgLSBSMzETMBEGA1UEChMKR2xvYmFsU2lnbjETMBEGA1UE AxMKR2xvYmFsU2lnbjAeFw0yMDA5MTYwMDAwMDBaFw0yODA5MTYwMDAwMDBaMFsxCzAJBgNVBAYT AkJFMRkwFwYDVQQKExBHbG9iYWxTaWduIG52LXNhMTEwLwYDVQQDEyhHbG9iYWxTaWduIEdDQyBS MyBQZXJzb25hbFNpZ24gMiBDQSAyMDIwMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEA vbCmXCcsbZ/a0fRIQMBxp4gJnnyeneFYpEtNydrZZ+GeKSMdHiDgXD1UnRSIudKo+moQ6YlCOu4t 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