From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qv1-xf2a.google.com (mail-qv1-xf2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 708713B29E for ; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 12:57:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-qv1-xf2a.google.com with SMTP id op8so2419996qvb.11 for ; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 09:57:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1676915848; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=f6DF4hgtHJfNr/cevli1KF+8s0bQ0XMdyT2runXe3G4=; b=fUBqLd04uCXgiiwjVieUK2PdUgwm2tPZGI2YZkqUlZt5ZUgaN/WNopUbI9CpMV76+A F4mdzCeSNv+UwUzZT+zCYVgA0LuCSjyYJCNOHEJ/X95HQ35PNwbEh9PobWRXfPvwjoWt auh4sBgdgfoD0RjsYPkwLcP3xK7FWzsMdc4Xbwe/LIBpUpdJc+xDxN20C1LpXUf/M7Oe 2AAjZs/0/kkESFXE+6DQ5o84EWiAqpAgiSKwKex/TqYUKRnQKOtjeZCFkoj8IjDxjPa3 bm/5tupOrWihuNPtMF/7eyGiin20T0swA8u0WGYYH5Kc9dwjXGnnsHhw9hsa0Z5Y97I9 tTWQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1676915848; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=f6DF4hgtHJfNr/cevli1KF+8s0bQ0XMdyT2runXe3G4=; b=RC4fVWmBAlr2xLsT6o0EUOw/Vtybswpmq9pCBnOUFjp/wIy3hz9j5S1hmapmoSjOCW g2li7Hw38mUVFsZz0exVu5GHItrDWkG7DpLxabBIZLQxGTvb4uP+kNxaX5NB8y6Lfixi sKe5azo5mJ2/flY/fZ8Xv0BJxMYYgdMSLN1bWfUJNPn3A89PdTF1gL7K6FOuPJc4yxCH dpfaqIoPPStOa1/TVElVC8XwCOMOEd/zDs+oPP44AU52d2pMVCGHB7GmP4rvQUpiE/vb eBs4L4cg7R0/QFfvafgBBclSYc9W/m6JzQC4D6i2bVbRWFTLvZ7B/2LpxpT0xcznFhhx lrfQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKWNu14Ce7SCb160fE9lboV2i9N/P/vJnAUqG2wvLvjOZLirzOnx +N3f9Mau3iKyXgPOHstyPEkCotsxPL8rjmp8Zy8n/mTh X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set+G/kdx53aHnLgf/Hs5iFfoQ3/7x53qjgudnJXwgMwaqIuM7NquanjBUG0PZeRteBy3mE41osby6yZ+lpJdUjI= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:f493:0:b0:56e:b1dc:1d85 with SMTP id i19-20020a0cf493000000b0056eb1dc1d85mr502287qvm.27.1676915847813; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 09:57:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <26ac4e4e00b1d0f20c816630fafb7e58@rjmcmahon.com> <1209c1b2fb917edc8bf33a73782823bd@rjmcmahon.com> <3f89e35c27c144bbe4b6c8f2128e1557@rjmcmahon.com> <53b644b95d0901ef52f16bf53914517c@rjmcmahon.com> In-Reply-To: <53b644b95d0901ef52f16bf53914517c@rjmcmahon.com> From: Frantisek Borsik Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 18:56:51 +0100 Message-ID: To: rjmcmahon , Rpm Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006d5ef705f525657a" Subject: Re: [Rpm] Almost had a dialog going with juniper... X-BeenThere: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 17:57:28 -0000 --0000000000006d5ef705f525657a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" What's the saddest thing for me is that the Juniper lady has acknowledged that Dave IS right and then she added those 2 AQM to the her article (where it should be), however, then she blocked me, and maybe even Dave, or others that were commenting on it? Besides the actual evaporating of those comments. Sad. I'd visit Your Los Gatos neighbor Bob, for a small talk, Dave ;-) All the best, Frank Frantisek (Frank) Borsik https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 Skype: casioa5302ca frantisek.borsik@gmail.com On Mon, Feb 20, 2023 at 1:02 AM rjmcmahon via Rpm wrote: > Here, look at this. Designed as a WiFi aggregation device. > > https://www.arista.com/en/products/750-series > > It supplies 60W PoE and claims support for 384 ports. Oh, the max > distance per PoE AP is 100 meters. > > That's insane as a power source and the 100M distance limit is not > viable. > > Our engineering needs to improve a lot. > > Bob > > Cisco's first acquisition was Crescendo. They started with twisted > > pair and moved to Cat5. At the time, the claim was nobody would rewire > > corporate offices. But they did and those engineers always had an AC > > power plug nearby so they never really designed for power/bit over > > distance. > > > > Broadcom purchased Epigram. They started with twisted pair and moved > > to wireless (CMOS radios.) The engineers found that people really > > don't want to be tethered to wall jacks. So they had to consider power > > at all aspects of design. > > > > AP engineers have been a bit of a Frankenstein. They have power per AC > > wall jacks so the blast energy everywhere to sell sq ft. The > > enterprise AP guys do silly things like PoE. > > > > Better is to add CMOS radios everywhere and decrease power, > > inter-connected by fiber which is the end game in waveguides. Even the > > data centers are now limited to 4-meter cables when using copper and > > the energy consumption is through the roof. > > > > Bob > >> On Sun, Feb 19, 2023 at 3:37 PM rjmcmahon > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> A bit off topic, but the AP/client power asymmetry is another design > >>> flaw similar to bloat. > >> > >> It makes no sense to broadcast at a watt when the device is nearby. I > >> think this is a huge, and largely unexplored problem. We tried to > >> tackle it in the minstrel-blues project but didn't get far enough, and > >> the rate controllers became too proprietary to continue. Some details > >> here: > >> > >> https://github.com/thuehn/Minstrel-Blues > >> > >>> > >>> Not sure why nobody is talking about that. > >> > >> Understanding of the inverse square law is rare. The work we did at > >> google fiber, clearly showed the chromecast stick overdriving nearby > >> APs. > >> > >> https://apenwarr.ca/diary/wifi-data-apenwarr-201602.pdf > >> > >> > >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey5jVUXSJn4 > >> > >> Haha. > >> > >>> > >>> Bob > >>> > Their post isn't really about bloat. It's about the discrepancy in > i/o > >>> > bw of memory off-chip and on-chip. > >>> > > >>> > My opinion is that the off-chip memory or hybrid approach is a design > >>> > flaw for a serious router mfg. The flaw is thinking the links' rates > >>> > and the chip memory i/o rates aren't connected when obviously they > >>> > are. Just go fast as possible and let some other device buffer, e.g. > >>> > the end host or the server in the cloud. > >>> > > >>> > Bob > >>> >> https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/juniper/ > >>> >> > >>> >> But they deleted the comment thread. It is interesting, I suppose, > to > >>> >> see how they frame the buffering problems to themselves in their > post: > >>> >> > https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/sizing-router-buffers-small-new-big-sharada-yeluri/ > >>> > _______________________________________________ > >>> > Rpm mailing list > >>> > Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm > > _______________________________________________ > > Rpm mailing list > > Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm > _______________________________________________ > Rpm mailing list > Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm > --0000000000006d5ef705f525657a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What's the saddest thing for me is that the Juniper la= dy has acknowledged that Dave IS right and then she added those 2 AQM to th= e her article (where it should be), however, then she blocked me, and maybe= even Dave, or others that were commenting on it? Besides the actual evapor= ating of those comments.

Sad. I'd visit Your Los Gat= os neighbor Bob, for a small talk, Dave ;-)

All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

=C2=A0

= https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +4= 21919416714=C2=A0

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

= frantisek.borsik@gmail.com



On Mon, Feb 20, 2023 at 1:02= AM rjmcmahon via Rpm <rpm@= lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
Here, look a= t this. Designed as a WiFi aggregation device.

https://www.arista.com/en/products/750-series

It supplies 60W PoE and claims support for 384 ports. Oh, the max
distance per PoE AP is 100 meters.

That's insane as a power source and the 100M distance limit is not
viable.

Our engineering needs to improve a lot.

Bob
> Cisco's first acquisition was Crescendo. They started with twisted=
> pair and moved to Cat5. At the time, the claim was nobody would rewire=
> corporate offices. But they did and those engineers always had an AC > power plug nearby so they never really designed for power/bit over
> distance.
>
> Broadcom purchased Epigram. They started with twisted pair and moved > to wireless (CMOS radios.) The engineers found that people really
> don't want to be tethered to wall jacks. So they had to consider p= ower
> at all aspects of design.
>
> AP engineers have been a bit of a Frankenstein. They have power per AC=
> wall jacks so the blast energy everywhere to sell sq ft. The
> enterprise AP guys do silly things like PoE.
>
> Better is to add CMOS radios everywhere and decrease power,
> inter-connected by fiber which is the end game in waveguides. Even the=
> data centers are now limited to 4-meter cables when using copper and > the energy consumption is through the roof.
>
> Bob
>> On Sun, Feb 19, 2023 at 3:37 PM rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com> >> wrote:
>>>
>>> A bit off topic, but the AP/client power asymmetry is another = design
>>> flaw similar to bloat.
>>
>> It makes no sense to broadcast at a watt when the device is nearby= . I
>> think this is a huge, and largely unexplored problem. We tried to<= br> >> tackle it in the minstrel-blues project but didn't get far eno= ugh, and
>> the rate controllers became too proprietary to continue. Some deta= ils
>> here:
>>
>> https://github.com/thuehn/Minstrel-Blues
>>
>>>
>>> Not sure why nobody is talking about that.
>>
>> Understanding of the inverse square law is rare. The work we did a= t
>> google fiber, clearly showed the chromecast stick overdriving near= by
>> APs.
>>
>> https://apenwarr.ca/diary/wifi-data-= apenwarr-201602.pdf
>>
>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DEy5jVUX= SJn4
>>
>> Haha.
>>
>>>
>>> Bob
>>> > Their post isn't really about bloat. It's about t= he discrepancy in i/o
>>> > bw of memory off-chip and on-chip.
>>> >
>>> > My opinion is that the off-chip memory or hybrid approach= is a design
>>> > flaw for a serious router mfg. The flaw is thinking the l= inks' rates
>>> > and the chip memory i/o rates aren't connected when o= bviously they
>>> > are. Just go fast as possible and let some other device b= uffer, e.g.
>>> > the end host or the server in the cloud.
>>> >
>>> > Bob
>>> >> https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/juniper/
>>> >>
>>> >> But they deleted the comment thread. It is interestin= g, I suppose, to
>>> >> see how they frame the buffering problems to themselv= es in their post:
>>> >> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/sizing-router-buffers-small-new-big-shar= ada-yeluri/
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Rpm mailing list
>>> > Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/r= pm
> _______________________________________________
> Rpm mailing list
> Rpm@lis= ts.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm
_______________________________________________
Rpm mailing list
Rpm@lists.bu= fferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm
--0000000000006d5ef705f525657a--