From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qk1-x72e.google.com (mail-qk1-x72e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 901043B29E for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 19:54:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x72e.google.com with SMTP id bi39so13107878qkb.13 for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 16:54:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1681516495; x=1684108495; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=8/A730SA92YfutIPZ3rxIre3LFsg3iYHq4OIPYjuCFw=; b=McPahuMSBsijnWWifGwLh78gORtQBUPHPjX/r59WBslRH0U6T2UjLXWuvaig28X0pk HzAI6kVf+nefF87v6/5dc22DDcDcDWvg58OJ0Ub4golX/524RnBA8AKliB4L2T/jN63x /cFE3RBCyt3BwGOu4Gmn0mOS08rDeLpPx9PI8aMPB7VBHzY7qjyth1sCq7VsXGa6eYMr s8C5M+euXVOMgHmV0iFnN7oVQlmLxeTFzuXSpTLxq+JztNXJ/pUDYIm/76+kTqrnXoHV 47Z5Mt2wVJ82WrQABJrxFrPLBT3D+uFhysM2vUr2nzYfXfCRpDD1uLyxbB22d8kD+/x3 r0Ew== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1681516495; x=1684108495; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=8/A730SA92YfutIPZ3rxIre3LFsg3iYHq4OIPYjuCFw=; b=A1W3PEToro4DGgJwRcsFUpWMXbnVM1F+1RuetQjgAenzb4z9kLZ93+LL2q6qkniv3u rQkJ0DDh8t0HKnfJh+60PnDP8zcU4R6RXZV4q0BRGAPcqMlVI7tsexlL+3AzOskgHKe7 BTHHTczs9WIitDaLAKx/YbZJQj4OkN8xxpIWAr1ObkYXjRjA2jnDLDuLxhh0Dz+Oy9AM JyKM2siQo5DBG4lwvFQGx3dFNUnJsUcr0Bqxz6cxOFDSD+k2RLMGpVXLaGE/4dGrDal6 znOSqBpfMoAbi2hz37D6t57eyAwsaDAvu60bmERQOrritBZOW8JQKImxdtVllQN1QQu4 IAPw== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9f/qzdyc0jP62h06YAOHarFhKUtPIvDtp9d5JZBCh6CJRJtHSu2 xt/K0vLnG/1ARlCO6W8Pl9bfBmziDoCvUQQAQ+4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350angWQCydKOdpNTMl39b80blV6Q8Hh+24Ynj+xqv+/5R0AMCfMKpkaX8rinvWuM9FKRQzmC7rl4w/Knp+q9XpI= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:1491:b0:74a:cabb:ed55 with SMTP id w17-20020a05620a149100b0074acabbed55mr995680qkj.12.1681516494888; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 16:54:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Frantisek Borsik Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2023 02:03:43 +0200 Message-ID: To: Dave Taht Cc: Christoph Paasch , Rpm Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005ca4b405f954918f" Subject: Re: [Rpm] Vote: Closing the rpm list? X-BeenThere: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2023 23:54:55 -0000 --0000000000005ca4b405f954918f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Aye! On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 at 11:26 PM, Dave Taht via Rpm < rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > On Fri, Apr 14, 2023 at 2:17=E2=80=AFPM Christoph Paasch > wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > > On Apr 14, 2023, at 2:02 PM, Dave Taht wrote: > > > > > > I was not aware until this moment of the existence of the slack > > > channel, poor me! > > > > No worries! I think we announced it a while back here on the list. > > > > > Anyway (all?), should I discontinue this mailing list, in preference > > > for that? I have had had a tendency to cc rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net o= n > > > more general measurement stuff, but perhaps ippm or slack would be a > > > better home for it now? There are 53 users on this list, but so few > > > postings besides the occasional cc from the bloat list. > > > > Yes, ok to close this mailing-list from my point-of-view. > > I will take a vote: Those here that want this list to continue, please > say aye! Vote will close in 1 week. > > Or in what direction to move it? There are other measurement lists I > am on also, such as ripe's and the marconi society... I have a long > list of other (sadly unfunded, like wtbb) tools and benchmarks (like > crusader), but what limited discussion of those we have, can largely > all that can move to the bloat list. > > To clarify, discussion should be on ippm anyway? > > I see nearly no discussion from there. I too have found various chat > channels vastly more productive than email, myself... > > > > > Christoph > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 14, 2023 at 1:15=E2=80=AFPM Christoph Paasch > wrote: > > >> > > >> Hello Dave, > > >> > > >> On Apr 13, 2023, at 3:13 PM, Dave Taht via Rpm < > rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > >> > > >> I have not been paying a lot of attention here of late. I objected t= o > > >> the enormous number of flows goresponsiveness was doing, and strongl= y > > >> suggested it run to time of first loss or mark. > > >> > > >> I find 4 flows enough > > >> to stress out a network. > > >> > > >> > > >> 4 flows should often be enough to utilize a network at its full > capacity. However, are 4 flows going to provide you stable working > conditions in such a way that the bottleneck=E2=80=99s buffers are entire= ly full > over an extended period without fluctuations due to the congestion-respon= se > of the individual flows? Also, what is the convergence time to reach stab= le > working conditions and full buffer utilization at 4 flows? > > >> > > >> Now, that being said. I don=E2=80=99t think that the exact number of= flows is > that important. They just need to be enough to fill the buffers in a stab= le > way. All nit-picking on the number of flows just distracts us from actual= ly > solving problems on the Internet. > > >> > > >> Anyway, is the structure of networkQuality > > >> changing any in ippm? > > >> > > >> > > >> Yes, the IETF-draft is continuously evolving. You can read the lates= t > version at > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-responsiveness. > > >> > > >> Discussions around the methodology and the development of the tools > as well as addressing issues we find in open-source networking stacks is > all happening at the =E2=80=9CNetwork-quality community=E2=80=9D, at > https://github.com/network-quality/community/wiki. We have a > slack-channel and a weekly meeting. Everyone who is actively working on > development is invited to join our slack-channel and attend the weekly > meetings. (The "active development" is a strong requirement ) > > >> > > >> > > >> Cheers, > > >> Christoph > > >> > > >> Some context here: > > >> > > >> > https://www.reddit.com/r/amazoneero/comments/12ksu9d/sqm_optimizing_for_v= ideoconferencing_and_gaming/jg4zsq2/?context=3D8&depth=3D9 > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> AMA March 31: > https://www.broadband.io/c/broadband-grant-events/dave-taht > > >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Rpm mailing list > > >> Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net > > >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > -- > > > AMA March 31: > https://www.broadband.io/c/broadband-grant-events/dave-taht > > > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > > > > -- > AMA March 31: https://www.broadband.io/c/broadband-grant-events/dave-taht > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > _______________________________________________ > Rpm mailing list > Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm > --=20 All the best, Frank Frantisek (Frank) Borsik https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 Skype: casioa5302ca frantisek.borsik@gmail.com --0000000000005ca4b405f954918f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Aye!

On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 at 11:26 PM, Dave Taht via R= pm <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.n= et> wrote:
On Fri, Apr 14, 2023 at 2:17=E2= =80=AFPM Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> > On Apr 14, 2023, at 2:02 PM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I was not aware until this moment of the existence of the slack > > channel, poor me!
>
> No worries! I think we announced it a while back here on the list.
>
> > Anyway (all?), should I discontinue this mailing list, in prefere= nce
> > for that? I have had had a tendency to cc rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net on > > more general measurement stuff, but perhaps ippm or slack would b= e a
> > better home for it now? There are 53 users on this list, but so f= ew
> > postings besides the occasional cc from the bloat list.
>
> Yes, ok to close this mailing-list from my point-of-view.

I will take a vote: Those here that want this list to continue, please
say aye! Vote will close in 1 week.

Or in what direction to move it? There are other measurement lists I
am on also, such as ripe's and the marconi society... I have a long
list of other (sadly unfunded, like wtbb) tools and benchmarks (like
crusader), but what limited discussion of those we have, can largely
all that can move to the bloat list.

To clarify, discussion should be on ippm anyway?

I see nearly no discussion from there. I too have found various chat
channels vastly more productive than email, myself...

>
> Christoph
>
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 14, 2023 at 1:15=E2=80=AFPM Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com>= ; wrote:
> >>
> >> Hello Dave,
> >>
> >> On Apr 13, 2023, at 3:13 PM, Dave Taht via Rpm <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.= net> wrote:
> >>
> >> I have not been paying a lot of attention here of late. I obj= ected to
> >> the enormous number of flows goresponsiveness was doing, and = strongly
> >> suggested it run to time of first loss or mark.
> >>
> >> I find 4 flows enough
> >> to stress out a network.
> >>
> >>
> >> 4 flows should often be enough to utilize a network at its fu= ll capacity. However, are 4 flows going to provide you stable working condi= tions in such a way that the bottleneck=E2=80=99s buffers are entirely full= over an extended period without fluctuations due to the congestion-respons= e of the individual flows? Also, what is the convergence time to reach stab= le working conditions and full buffer utilization at 4 flows?
> >>
> >> Now, that being said. I don=E2=80=99t think that the exact nu= mber of flows is that important. They just need to be enough to fill the bu= ffers in a stable way. All nit-picking on the number of flows just distract= s us from actually solving problems on the Internet.
> >>
> >> Anyway, is the structure of networkQuality
> >> changing any in ippm?
> >>
> >>
> >> Yes, the IETF-draft is continuously evolving. You can read th= e latest version at https://data= tracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-responsiveness.
> >>
> >> Discussions around the methodology and the development of the= tools as well as addressing issues we find in open-source networking stack= s is all happening at the =E2=80=9CNetwork-quality community=E2=80=9D, at <= a href=3D"https://github.com/network-quality/community/wiki" rel=3D"norefer= rer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/network-quality/community/wiki. We have a slack-channel and a weekly meeting. Everyone who is actively w= orking on development is invited to join our slack-channel and attend the w= eekly meetings. (The "active development" is a strong requirement= )
> >>
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Christoph
> >>
> >> Some context here:
> >>
> >> https://www.reddit.com/r/a= mazoneero/comments/12ksu9d/sqm_optimizing_for_videoconferencing_and_gaming/= jg4zsq2/?context=3D8&depth=3D9
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> AMA March 31: https://www.b= roadband.io/c/broadband-grant-events/dave-taht
> >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Rpm mailing list
> >> Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net
> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > AMA March 31: https://www.broad= band.io/c/broadband-grant-events/dave-taht
> > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>


--
AMA March 31: https://www.broadband.io/c/= broadband-grant-events/dave-taht
Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
_______________________________________________
Rpm mailing list
Rpm@lists.bu= fferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm
-- <= br>
All the best,

Frank
Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

https://www.linkedin.com/i= n/frantisekborsik
Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp:=C2=A0+421919416714=C2= =A0
iMessage, mobile:=C2=A0+420775230885
Skype: casioa5302ca
frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
=
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