From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ed1-x52c.google.com (mail-ed1-x52c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 787DE3CBDA for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 13:09:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x52c.google.com with SMTP id eg48so19043583edb.13 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 10:09:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=perens.com; s=google; t=1678900198; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=gcUj+4fSzPbMO0CBjQQCrpKZam4IpYhSXnDcr2NIx/o=; b=STTPnZecCcuXN2yYuuJ8sZwaYsEH1b0KPYFo6Q7K4lkh61ni700XVi1eA+Wz3u2Iev hooeE8pcWOF0DxeTziutCzMhC4XSK7M3AjCvERsEy6TzqenbtDECciiXwIkLuoxF5kVY Lmz0p9N97BmNDu59ZACVKstdhb9KJUHy2c3JA= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1678900198; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=gcUj+4fSzPbMO0CBjQQCrpKZam4IpYhSXnDcr2NIx/o=; b=jsQ67Pf1e/P5DQLkJa6KnR2NYMxLuzz1viv4Wj77R1lXBq3S1MnPf+v/nJ5W2ZjT5D IguoV9edu57SJmL0Khl0H7eMg/9z8Bfzp1av5rtER4yvdBEWCNKoCHR6ZfmDl/hK2AUr jQTU3aTKSGvwmIjeTMvo+c1HzsCUfY94BDIQnrVGqU2eUz4Y4IzVE8HOXTanlfScuM3h 4y8m9tJjUKc6NyVlaeXLEo0MNNffzQFmek2HjAvZZDkv/s0Gve+CfCTzUmyMeR4oVcfM 1ZsG34A5ngmb4BeMq6sZ2m/aGCyImtvjqXhKiFrWLyvqRLaABDLZUq720KG3tWkvEPMw z91w== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKV5CD8+A4dqK0QSP0SEr4HSRy5AzV2g0IqLZnMyan0PDZQSnSet Wevyv5s2xC9gjkuruEsTIH37LkZdld8xCRzQequltQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set9tCROV9sIeDQKECFA/sPOOqdTmyPAB2W5HOtzxEtMOIZjBmoiwyp7xfqOuwdCvUCVOjCUNAJH71fCsrWdGPhY= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:36e:b0:877:747d:4a85 with SMTP id rs14-20020a170907036e00b00877747d4a85mr3735096ejb.3.1678900198223; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 10:09:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <22C819FA-DDD7-4B9B-8C09-8008D4273287@gmx.de> <5e7fac51071bdbb20837e72e7eedfc7c@rjmcmahon.com> <3f45d2a0b6e46d7b2775fb801e805f93@rjmcmahon.com> <70F71290-C6CB-4D19-8A88-F0F17C0BDDA2@gmx.de> <5e0cd693c4749d128dbb48d6c1129071@rjmcmahon.com> <2ab2983d-6beb-49cb-8c35-e481cbfdc7a3@Spark> <89c55d67-86f0-494d-a09e-c9aeebe46dc0@rjmcmahon.com> <70CBB03C-4394-4A93-BBB5-7449DC1AAF9C@gmx.de> <063359bf-5bf3-4688-852c-a7d81e6b80a3@rjmcmahon.com> <21f2252ff57e60dc52e7b9a6db8ba936@rjmcmahon.com> <8a04de1c-2d47-4226-a1ac-ea3d5e7b7253@rjmcmahon.com> In-Reply-To: From: Bruce Perens Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 10:05:35 -0700 Message-ID: To: Aaron Wood Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink , Robert McMahon , Rpm , bloat , dan , libreqos Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000edbfad05f6f36901" Subject: Re: [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] [Bloat] On FiWi X-BeenThere: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 17:09:59 -0000 --000000000000edbfad05f6f36901 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think the big problem with this is users per domicile. It's easy enough to support one floor of a residence with a single AP. There is an upper limit on the bandwidth that one user can ever require. It is probably what is needed for full-sphere VR at the perceptual limit. We have long achieved the perceptual limit of ears, on top of that we have a lot of tweaking and self-deception. We will get to the limit of eyes. Multiply this by eight users per domicile for a limit that most would fit in. We can probably do that with one AP. The additional equipment and maintenance outlay for structural fiber and an AP per room doesn't really seem worth it. On Wed, Mar 15, 2023, 09:17 Aaron Wood wrote: > I like the general idea, especially if there was a site-wide controller > module that can do the sort of frequency allocation that network engineer= s > do in dense AP deployments today: adjacent APs run on different frequenc= y > bands so that they reduce the likelihood of stepping on each others > transmissions. > > One of the biggest knowledge gaps that I see people have around wireless > is that it IS a shared medium. It both is, and isn=E2=80=99t a bus. Sha= red like a > bus, but with the hidden transmissions that remove the csma abilities tha= t > get with a bus. > > But the main issue will be deployment. This would be great for commercia= l > buildings that get retrofitted every decade or so with new gear. > > This will be near-impossible in the US except for new construction or big > remodels of existing structures. The cost of opening the walls to run th= e > fiber will make the cost of the hardware itself insignificant. > > OTOH, because the STAs aren=E2=80=99t specialized, the existing ones =E2= =80=9Cjust work=E2=80=9D, > and so you don=E2=80=99t have the usual bootstrap issue that plagues tech= like > zigbee and Zwave, where there isn=E2=80=99t enough infra to justify the d= evices, or > not enough devices to justify the infra. > > -Aaron > > On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 10:21 PM Bruce Perens via Rpm < > rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 5:11=E2=80=AFPM Robert McMahon >> wrote: >> >>> the AP needs to blast a CTS so every other possible conversation has to >>> halt. >>> >> The wireless network is not a bus. This still ignores the hidden >> transmitter problem because there is a similar network in the next room. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rpm mailing list >> Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm >> > -- > - Sent from my iPhone. > --000000000000edbfad05f6f36901 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think the big problem with this is users per domicile. = It's easy enough to support one floor of a residence with a single AP. = There is an upper limit on the bandwidth that one user can ever require. It= is probably what is needed for full-sphere VR at the perceptual limit. We = have long achieved the perceptual limit of ears, on top of that we have a l= ot of tweaking and self-deception. We will get to the limit of eyes. Multip= ly this by eight users per domicile for a limit that most would fit in. We = can probably do that with one AP. The additional equipment and maintenance = outlay for structural fiber and an AP per room doesn't really seem wort= h it.



On Wed, Mar 15= , 2023, 09:17 Aaron Wood <woody77@g= mail.com> wrote:
I like the general idea, especially if there was a site-wide control= ler module that can do the sort of frequency allocation that network engine= ers do in dense AP deployments today: =C2=A0adjacent APs run on different f= requency bands so that they reduce the likelihood of stepping on each other= s transmissions.

One of = the biggest knowledge gaps that I see people have around wireless is that i= t IS a shared medium.=C2=A0 It both is, and isn=E2=80=99t a bus.=C2=A0 Shar= ed like a bus, but with the hidden transmissions that remove the csma abili= ties that get with a bus.

But the main issue will be deployment.=C2=A0 This would be great for comm= ercial buildings that get retrofitted every decade or so with new gear.

This will be near-impossibl= e in the US except for new construction or big remodels of existing structu= res.=C2=A0 The cost of opening the walls to run the fiber will make the cos= t of the hardware itself insignificant.

OTOH, because the STAs aren=E2=80=99t specialized, the exis= ting ones =E2=80=9Cjust work=E2=80=9D, and so you don=E2=80=99t have the us= ual bootstrap issue that plagues tech like zigbee and Zwave, where there is= n=E2=80=99t enough infra to justify the devices, or not enough devices to j= ustify the infra.

-Aaron=

On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at= 10:21 PM Bruce Perens via Rpm <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net>= wrote:


On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 5:11=E2= =80=AFPM Robert McMahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com> wrote:
=
the AP needs to blast a CTS so every other possible c= onversation has to halt.
The wireless network = is not a bus. This still ignores the hidden transmitter problem because=C2= =A0there is a similar network in the next room.

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