From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-oa1-x2a.google.com (mail-oa1-x2a.google.com [IPv6:2001:4860:4864:20::2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 496073CBE4; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 12:17:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-oa1-x2a.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-17997ccf711so7976924fac.0; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 09:17:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1678897064; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=g9JRY6BLqKbWp4oneIlJdNTkM9K+Oc8XEkECtzOY9x8=; b=LkyWO85s+m2I7ZxJK+moXD4jIfdx+iPD4cBR3NGH/itME5+qdeeRLLIz/tWUPCS/BJ tzsL7pMUN1GJVdadhR+VwjNXcv3Wnqy0Um58R+qe7hjgk0yAqjXnfRBtxrRtPAREkALo Cl7u4QmK5wcLnkld3ALrrYVC/rJfXVccWv0MBGaPeyf2k4VCxyT4ilo/Yqne6gOaU5lf HuZJTxEYUB94VVfyFz5u8v+aRdaaRQCnTIT3vXN5ZHoqwd9hroMhm9FeqVaTlJZwvGtm Zp9QT+TNFOCgP4ZP6J8zkkCjmQ/qEp0hV74ltSDy9rD+1FEvPVFQa9EJKxf9hYQwbNqu BPsg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1678897064; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=g9JRY6BLqKbWp4oneIlJdNTkM9K+Oc8XEkECtzOY9x8=; b=5Z/zYVR7CHPLp2Aa4BmDTzUhZdYVB5iAfZoHSbUkvi3DSsAiFd1B7kYpOyuhaDDGvW wyGRsJCkjA+rO2kN+naJVj40EzzOYvcf+l8qbEZUQjQx+UZbNiVgYfOx4KfTL4otWYdQ 4zwS6L9NENGDhqgFo3AJwCZdXlIVXKip/sVungYZHMf4o4Y3keYsUFkBPmGML1uAPZa2 UuFoIRbvBL5WNQ60ynVRlYBl5osX+ron+NWqAr+Eol1qvUnOFEUi3bUEYBJGKcBa3eTR 9hDtDaLNmGFH+Li0S19xhfWnkuVnozq8mSmD8xo+2JImfVK+scQgLfHdyTzB+W7Us55v FCbw== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKU9VThFSCBgTewdVaPN9S6NEpu4TElXmMnQYu8UbGgdCBfmLNWQ RsyRxVrwDtkDr6ZpAklfzdCnJtmz71ceogYGLDI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set+PPrG04FQ36bTnHKXF9QTbhyDOfoKnh0P/cv5ZUW5juIjtQzhUm4qGbiEOkZ60B6S0p9LdFwzwgxzhteBPWL4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6871:470c:b0:177:9f9c:dd1 with SMTP id py12-20020a056871470c00b001779f9c0dd1mr6100441oab.2.1678897064482; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 09:17:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <22C819FA-DDD7-4B9B-8C09-8008D4273287@gmx.de> <5e7fac51071bdbb20837e72e7eedfc7c@rjmcmahon.com> <3f45d2a0b6e46d7b2775fb801e805f93@rjmcmahon.com> <70F71290-C6CB-4D19-8A88-F0F17C0BDDA2@gmx.de> <5e0cd693c4749d128dbb48d6c1129071@rjmcmahon.com> <2ab2983d-6beb-49cb-8c35-e481cbfdc7a3@Spark> <89c55d67-86f0-494d-a09e-c9aeebe46dc0@rjmcmahon.com> <70CBB03C-4394-4A93-BBB5-7449DC1AAF9C@gmx.de> <063359bf-5bf3-4688-852c-a7d81e6b80a3@rjmcmahon.com> <21f2252ff57e60dc52e7b9a6db8ba936@rjmcmahon.com> <8a04de1c-2d47-4226-a1ac-ea3d5e7b7253@rjmcmahon.com> In-Reply-To: From: Aaron Wood Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 09:17:33 -0700 Message-ID: To: Bruce Perens Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink , Robert McMahon , Rpm , bloat , dan , libreqos Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000249aae05f6f2af09" Subject: Re: [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] [Bloat] On FiWi X-BeenThere: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 16:17:45 -0000 --000000000000249aae05f6f2af09 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I like the general idea, especially if there was a site-wide controller module that can do the sort of frequency allocation that network engineers do in dense AP deployments today: adjacent APs run on different frequency bands so that they reduce the likelihood of stepping on each others transmissions. One of the biggest knowledge gaps that I see people have around wireless is that it IS a shared medium. It both is, and isn=E2=80=99t a bus. Shared l= ike a bus, but with the hidden transmissions that remove the csma abilities that get with a bus. But the main issue will be deployment. This would be great for commercial buildings that get retrofitted every decade or so with new gear. This will be near-impossible in the US except for new construction or big remodels of existing structures. The cost of opening the walls to run the fiber will make the cost of the hardware itself insignificant. OTOH, because the STAs aren=E2=80=99t specialized, the existing ones =E2=80= =9Cjust work=E2=80=9D, and so you don=E2=80=99t have the usual bootstrap issue that plagues tech l= ike zigbee and Zwave, where there isn=E2=80=99t enough infra to justify the dev= ices, or not enough devices to justify the infra. -Aaron On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 10:21 PM Bruce Perens via Rpm < rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > > On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 5:11=E2=80=AFPM Robert McMahon > wrote: > >> the AP needs to blast a CTS so every other possible conversation has to >> halt. >> > The wireless network is not a bus. This still ignores the hidden > transmitter problem because there is a similar network in the next room. > > _______________________________________________ > Rpm mailing list > Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm > --=20 - Sent from my iPhone. --000000000000249aae05f6f2af09 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I like the general idea, especially if there was a site-w= ide controller module that can do the sort of frequency allocation that net= work engineers do in dense AP deployments today: =C2=A0adjacent APs run on = different frequency bands so that they reduce the likelihood of stepping on= each others transmissions.

One of the biggest knowledge gaps that I see people have around wireles= s is that it IS a shared medium.=C2=A0 It both is, and isn=E2=80=99t a bus.= =C2=A0 Shared like a bus, but with the hidden transmissions that remove the= csma abilities that get with a bus.

But the main issue will be deployment.=C2=A0 This would be gre= at for commercial buildings that get retrofitted every decade or so with ne= w gear.

This will be nea= r-impossible in the US except for new construction or big remodels of exist= ing structures.=C2=A0 The cost of opening the walls to run the fiber will m= ake the cost of the hardware itself insignificant.
<= br>
OTOH, because the STAs aren=E2=80=99t specialize= d, the existing ones =E2=80=9Cjust work=E2=80=9D, and so you don=E2=80=99t = have the usual bootstrap issue that plagues tech like zigbee and Zwave, whe= re there isn=E2=80=99t enough infra to justify the devices, or not enough d= evices to justify the infra.

-Aaron

On Tue, Mar = 14, 2023 at 10:21 PM Bruce Perens via Rpm <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:


On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 5:11=E2=80=AFPM Robert McMahon <= ;rjmcmahon@rjm= cmahon.com> wrote:
the AP needs to blast a= CTS so every other possible conversation has to halt.
The wireless network is not a bus. This still ignores the hidden t= ransmitter problem because=C2=A0there is a similar network in the next room= .

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