From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qk1-x734.google.com (mail-qk1-x734.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::734]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 38ACC3B2A4; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 14:44:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x734.google.com with SMTP id b25so3230248qkk.7; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 11:44:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=references:to:cc:in-reply-to:date:subject:mime-version:message-id :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=u/GggHlkdfvk7boPHxQ1rFPMq/0IRDhedUxJ+zDWf7Y=; b=hId53SL7F5IlhT8FdeufgAN6c7LNqjdTb6KI4yzDMa/RGm2s+rOosJQKIXDD/aCevy PWSKAsYn8sxZiOqCjosi7OzFiZlFv/EfBCdyRZW8hKh2Fjm9WdBYZigkkEyhH8FWPWSt fSuT+KKZT3d0/nDLdzrYrPduQaW7y07xNCpIiHJcHcNlh3fGKiyxXsXmOp0IthfflklT klhNl5L+wLLu/s88/2zbQvW7kGu++DVN2+QsUDZK2+ibSVuc6FosfFuVfDpVfFasCV9y O8Si5oZiviHzbJUNfdrx4PPunET1LiXSHdETkGbgo6yMn2VIwhhuDcULd5Ndn0WzsQVP SNvg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=references:to:cc:in-reply-to:date:subject:mime-version:message-id :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=u/GggHlkdfvk7boPHxQ1rFPMq/0IRDhedUxJ+zDWf7Y=; b=JoHDEQjn73F70Ri1fA0UOk/gh1YPN7G4tsYKeUl/1pNUZSR+qYxWwhyBQNkYPK38Lv 9q6tCZY4Rvk7Q8tiXRcaYg+1tnQe+kIqkqUvkR11C0gzaDbmZJPCqvRenKeax7HfUMb4 YeVOpPbTNJZDIWcyhCtKZpgjZxTyec+QdEs9A1Y4WzhxpQ5uE2sFJfA4P+nHJutjB+Yv IM+imVyTA3HkCcu2SHWuSGrZ9PduOiNv0on/7nK5tDLRDHW3be79HPPAzGPWtDbJj2Qk 9jJ7g9y2b5buZxou1O2HBXEBCL3tfe4zHlDkGHor8mGFRF26VAkmTRoNAFm7VMkoW52P 3qbw== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf3fCo1j3dDYTvodCaAlfWDHAfnlAVygLt4gQ96hyXSROcgdOhhS xFw2ArmMpmI2Zl7YuYy6G0Y= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM7Y/BDxhn9p/XxSJRyKCuO5Wgw2+AK9tatCPMVJiZFKjbi0xvdkC88TGpkiCShkCCkfX81YyQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:462b:b0:6ce:7dce:82d6 with SMTP id br43-20020a05620a462b00b006ce7dce82d6mr17574332qkb.476.1665513841708; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 11:44:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.253.116] ([198.55.239.10]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y8-20020a05620a25c800b006cbe3be300esm13490016qko.12.2022.10.11.11.44.00 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 11 Oct 2022 11:44:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Rich Brown Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_53FB8F67-909E-4B98-A08D-A219B60BF5F6" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 14:44:00 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: David Lang , Cake List , Make-Wifi-fast , Rpm , bloat To: Bob McMahon References: <72674884-9E0D-4645-B5F5-C593CC45A8F0@gmx.de> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Subject: Re: [Rpm] [Bloat] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cake] The most wonderful video ever about bufferbloat X-BeenThere: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 18:44:02 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_53FB8F67-909E-4B98-A08D-A219B60BF5F6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Oct 11, 2022, at 1:05 PM, Bob McMahon = wrote: >=20 > I agree that bufferbloat awareness is a good thing. The issue I have = is the approach - ask consumers to "detect it" and replace a device with = a new one, that may or may not, meet all the needs of the users. >=20 > Better is that network engineers "design bloat out" from the beginning = starting by properly sizing queues to service jitter, and for WiFi, to = also enable aggregation techniques that minimize TXOP consumption. The Yes, but... part of my answer emphasizes awareness. How are the = network engineers going to know it's worth the (minor) effort of = creating properly-sized queues? There are two fronts to attack: - Manufacturers - This video is a start on getting their customers to = use these responsiveness test tools and call the support lines. - Hardware (especially router) reviewers - It kills me that there is = radio silence whenever I ask a reviewer if they have ever measured = latency/responsiveness. (BTW: Has anyone heard from Ben Moskowitz from = Consumer Reports? We had a very encouraging phone call about a year ago, = and they were going to get back to us...) Rich > Bob >=20 > On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 6:57 AM Rich Brown > wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On Oct 10, 2022, at 8:05 PM, Bob McMahon via Rpm = > wrote: >>=20 >> > I think conflating bufferbloat with latency misses the subtle point = in that >> > bufferbloat is a measurement in memory units more than a = measurement in >> > time units. >=20 > Yes, but... I am going to praise this video, even as I encourage all = the techies to be sure that they have the units correct. >=20 > I've been yammering about the evils of latency/excess queueing for 10 = years on my blog, in forums, etc. I have not achieved anywhere near the = notoriety of this video (almost a third of a million views). >=20 > I am delighted that there's an engaging, mass-market Youtube video = that makes the case that bufferbloat even exists.=20 >=20 > Rich >=20 > This electronic communication and the information and any files = transmitted with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are = intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is = addressed and may contain information that is confidential, legally = privileged, protected by privacy laws, or otherwise restricted from = disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the intended recipient or the = person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, = you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distributing, = dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is = strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please return = the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any = printed copy of it. --Apple-Mail=_53FB8F67-909E-4B98-A08D-A219B60BF5F6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii



On Oct 11, 2022, at 1:05 PM, Bob McMahon <bob.mcmahon@broadcom.com> wrote:

I agree that bufferbloat awareness is a good thing. The issue = I have is the approach - ask consumers to "detect it" and replace a = device with a new one, that may or may not, meet all the needs of the = users.

Better is that network engineers "design bloat out" from the = beginning starting by properly sizing queues to service jitter, and for = WiFi, to also enable aggregation techniques that minimize TXOP = consumption.

The Yes, but... part of my answer emphasizes awareness. = How are the network engineers going to know it's worth the (minor) = effort of creating properly-sized queues?

There are two fronts to attack:

- Manufacturers - This video is a start on getting = their customers to use these responsiveness test tools and call the = support lines.

- Hardware = (especially router) reviewers - It kills me that there is radio silence = whenever I ask a reviewer if they have ever measured = latency/responsiveness.  (BTW: Has anyone heard from Ben Moskowitz = from Consumer Reports? We had a very encouraging phone call about a year = ago, and they were going to get back to us...)

Rich


Bob

On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 6:57 AM Rich Brown <richb.hanover@gmail.com> wrote:


On Oct = 10, 2022, at 8:05 PM, Bob McMahon via Rpm <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> I think = conflating bufferbloat with latency misses the subtle point in = that
> bufferbloat = is a measurement in memory units more than a measurement in
> time = units.

Yes, = but... I am going to praise this video, even as I encourage all the = techies to be sure that they have the units correct.

I've been yammering = about the evils of latency/excess queueing for 10 years on my blog, in = forums, etc. I have not achieved anywhere near the notoriety of this = video (almost a third of a million views).

I am delighted that there's an = engaging, mass-market Youtube video that makes the case that bufferbloat = even exists. 

Rich

This electronic communication and the information = and any files transmitted with it, or attached to it, are confidential = and are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom = it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, = legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or otherwise restricted = from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the intended recipient or = the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended = recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distributing, = dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is = strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please return = the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any = printed copy of it.

= --Apple-Mail=_53FB8F67-909E-4B98-A08D-A219B60BF5F6--