From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mx-lapp03.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mx-lapp03.apple.com [17.179.253.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5BA723B29E for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 16:15:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp02.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp02.rno.apple.com [10.225.203.150]) by rn-mailsvcp-mx-lapp03.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.22.20230228 64bit (built Feb 28 2023)) with ESMTPS id <0RT400U93G9UKA30@rn-mailsvcp-mx-lapp03.rno.apple.com> for rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 13:15:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: 4R-gK79MnJF2C7PR_xQpKvDi5kTTYR_V X-Proofpoint-GUID: 4R-gK79MnJF2C7PR_xQpKvDi5kTTYR_V X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.573, 18.0.942 definitions=2023-04-11_14:2023-04-11, 2023-04-11 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=interactive_user_notspam policy=interactive_user score=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2303200000 definitions=main-2304110181 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=apple.com; h=from : message-id : content-type : mime-version : subject : date : in-reply-to : cc : to : references; s=20180706; bh=D2MACQZdku7yW7iBFPjoiOOdIDN2Su5p/e3IPHjvC3w=; b=IJ7qSRhsGLa5aPKmKJ2ha437nyIMxMzE3PT6xmCa/heX7NjA55oWdOrGpVd2XTnmXF6L arictBAO0e52wOT0U0IsBidZDrjgOriskcLFaQc317VH9g7h1/E89u4hEtf8aI2TjyW9 Ey4iWF6D7x1YGFMe547LHF9+ccwf2Id45H3eeT5uAMBhzniz6stGkyN6Nvz0CsSviU7D YPSV5ZlRCJDTm+1toskwibztwHtBrGKvXaWsYUaBDIZ8Qp1d6G4j6ACBv57PS3vp+Fym ZP93OBq9kEP0A8RmgzFOtQveEq1f2WVjpoQ+35GaEfZX8DE31rirZS//M6lfRLRKfVms ig== Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp04.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp04.rno.apple.com [17.179.253.17]) by rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp02.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.22.20230228 64bit (built Feb 28 2023)) with ESMTPS id <0RT400EBQG9UU7N0@rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp02.rno.apple.com>; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 13:15:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from process_milters-daemon.rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp04.rno.apple.com by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp04.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.22.20230228 64bit (built Feb 28 2023)) id <0RT400F00G21EI00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp04.rno.apple.com>; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 13:15:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Va-A: X-Va-T-CD: 32d6bca4cf45698a16b9e6590d58e58e X-Va-E-CD: c62d72b36256a7339fac07c182e49145 X-Va-R-CD: 4562d88785e21cbc6fd549c6e10f0e45 X-Va-ID: 8f09c168-9b7c-4eb1-97c0-936aeb35e791 X-Va-CD: 0 X-V-A: X-V-T-CD: 32d6bca4cf45698a16b9e6590d58e58e X-V-E-CD: c62d72b36256a7339fac07c182e49145 X-V-R-CD: 4562d88785e21cbc6fd549c6e10f0e45 X-V-ID: 309be7e8-1e77-4c8f-85cf-b98096436d1d X-V-CD: 0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.573, 18.0.942 definitions=2023-04-14_12:2023-04-13, 2023-04-14 signatures=0 Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [17.11.13.173]) by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp04.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.22.20230228 64bit (built Feb 28 2023)) with ESMTPSA id <0RT400QLWG9T6W00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp04.rno.apple.com>; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 13:15:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Christoph Paasch Message-id: Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E3EA9CED-4A9F-43D5-841B-C09031335DA6" MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3731.500.221\)) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2023 13:15:19 -0700 In-reply-to: Cc: Rpm To: Dave Taht References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.500.221) Subject: Re: [Rpm] the de-evolution of rpm X-BeenThere: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2023 20:15:31 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E3EA9CED-4A9F-43D5-841B-C09031335DA6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hello Dave, > On Apr 13, 2023, at 3:13 PM, Dave Taht via Rpm = wrote: >=20 > I have not been paying a lot of attention here of late. I objected to > the enormous number of flows goresponsiveness was doing, and strongly > suggested it run to time of first loss or mark. > I find 4 flows enough > to stress out a network. 4 flows should often be enough to utilize a network at its full = capacity. However, are 4 flows going to provide you stable working = conditions in such a way that the bottleneck=E2=80=99s buffers are = entirely full over an extended period without fluctuations due to the = congestion-response of the individual flows? Also, what is the = convergence time to reach stable working conditions and full buffer = utilization at 4 flows? Now, that being said. I don=E2=80=99t think that the exact number of = flows is that important. They just need to be enough to fill the buffers = in a stable way. All nit-picking on the number of flows just distracts = us from actually solving problems on the Internet. > Anyway, is the structure of networkQuality > changing any in ippm? Yes, the IETF-draft is continuously evolving. You can read the latest = version at = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-responsiveness. Discussions around the methodology and the development of the tools as = well as addressing issues we find in open-source networking stacks is = all happening at the =E2=80=9CNetwork-quality community=E2=80=9D, at = https://github.com/network-quality/community/wiki. We have a = slack-channel and a weekly meeting. Everyone who is actively working on = development is invited to join our slack-channel and attend the weekly = meetings. (The "active development" is a strong requirement ) Cheers, Christoph > Some context here: >=20 > = https://www.reddit.com/r/amazoneero/comments/12ksu9d/sqm_optimizing_for_vi= deoconferencing_and_gaming/jg4zsq2/?context=3D8&depth=3D9 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > AMA March 31: = https://www.broadband.io/c/broadband-grant-events/dave-taht > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > _______________________________________________ > Rpm mailing list > Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm --Apple-Mail=_E3EA9CED-4A9F-43D5-841B-C09031335DA6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hello = Dave,

On Apr 13, 2023, at = 3:13 PM, Dave Taht via Rpm <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net> = wrote:

I have not = been paying a lot of attention here of late. I objected to
the = enormous number of flows goresponsiveness was doing, and = strongly
suggested it run to time of first loss or = mark.
I = find 4 flows enough
to stress out a = network.

4 flows should = often be enough to utilize a network at its full capacity. However, are = 4 flows going to provide you stable working conditions in such a way = that the bottleneck=E2=80=99s buffers are entirely full over an extended = period without fluctuations due to the congestion-response of the = individual flows? Also, what is the convergence time to reach stable = working conditions and full buffer utilization at 4 = flows?

Now, that being said. I don=E2=80=99t = think that the exact number of flows is that important. They just need = to be enough to fill the buffers in a stable way. All nit-picking on the = number of flows just distracts us from actually solving problems on the = Internet.

Anyway, is the = structure of networkQuality
changing any in = ippm?

Yes, the IETF-draft is = continuously evolving. You can read the latest version at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-responsiveness.

Discussions around the methodology and the = development of the tools as well as addressing issues we find in = open-source networking stacks is all happening at the =E2=80=9CNetwork-qua= lity community=E2=80=9D, at https://github.= com/network-quality/community/wiki. We have a slack-channel and a = weekly meeting. Everyone who is actively working on development is = invited to join our slack-channel and attend the weekly meetings. (The = "active development" is a strong requirement = )


Cheers,
Christoph
Some context = here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/amazoneero/comments/12ksu9d/sqm_opti= mizing_for_videoconferencing_and_gaming/jg4zsq2/?context=3D8&depth=3D9=


--
AMA March 31: = https://www.broadband.io/c/broadband-grant-events/dave-taht
Dave = T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, = LLC
_______________________________________________
Rpm mailing = list
Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinf= o/rpm

= --Apple-Mail=_E3EA9CED-4A9F-43D5-841B-C09031335DA6--