From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com (ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com [17.171.2.60]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 971713CB37 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 17:01:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pps.filterd (ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com [127.0.0.1]) by ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 19BKsIqM031608; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 14:01:23 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=apple.com; h=date : from : to : cc : subject : message-id : references : mime-version : content-type : in-reply-to; s=20180706; bh=kTXEyseSTIFPS6lBFz+hYDzgonuNi7opOUoy1+rUFhU=; b=QJv47miAy1tYKpq5orBzkk002zTZIHKauYi3CK5bXfya+shDvUH+yBDCLMr6z6PiBjtF 5hZ0VWaY+jC3L5Ted1ZQWoV6lxwcz9GDXLpOAMaiyQYTcH4Xg4kTN+mpfnAS0xum6nA4 FEPjRK/mp6Y55tRE72sxlDV9K2FaPskZx8smj3ybhscqKdjiISY0fbgTHSJ8e/CO79lV v7gfkYckhWh9wWgEyV+kuRm/KCr1+eJK1qLE1mI629+6o/24kpqU/cMtBixlfc2yNJSX 0mkApYSZu00mYgs9eLM8qBiFRvVliddH9mtJhGFQswMwfa3sjwAihx11pAorVKORE0lG ag== Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com [10.225.203.149]) by ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com with ESMTP id 3bk9r2mb4y-5 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 11 Oct 2021 14:01:23 -0700 Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com [17.179.253.15]) by rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.12.20210903 64bit (built Sep 3 2021)) with ESMTPS id <0R0T00SD2ZQ8JT80@rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com>; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 14:01:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from process_milters-daemon.rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.12.20210903 64bit (built Sep 3 2021)) id <0R0T00500ZKYJS00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com>; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 14:01:20 -0700 (PDT) X-V-A: X-V-T-CD: 305f9cfbc9f02bcf23b6d7ea9ef11a8f X-V-E-CD: 6f6db8dfccb605e874e868c0e85c5b24 X-V-R-CD: 28e1937a51efda83d95d1b6b410d69e6 X-V-CD: 0 X-V-ID: 0fe49ba1-2f30-4fe2-9c8e-a11bf4e6da76 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.425, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-10-11_07:2021-10-07, 2021-10-11 signatures=0 Received: from localhost ([17.192.155.152]) by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.12.20210903 64bit (built Sep 3 2021)) with ESMTPSA id <0R0T00TKUZQ8H500@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com>; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 14:01:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 14:01:20 -0700 From: Christoph Paasch To: Simon Leinen Cc: Christoph Paasch via Rpm Message-id: References: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-disposition: inline In-reply-to: X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.425, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-10-11_07:2021-10-07, 2021-10-11 signatures=0 Subject: Re: [Rpm] Outch! I found a problem with responsiveness X-BeenThere: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 21:01:23 -0000 Hello Simon, On 10/05/21 - 23:43, Simon Leinen via Rpm wrote: > Hallo Christoph, > > > That's right. BB is a transient problem that is extremely short-lived. > > > Having tried for the past year to reliably demo the user-visible > > impact of bufferbloat, I have learned two things: > > > 1. When it happens, it is bad - really bad. > > 2. However, it is very difficult to trigger it "on-demand". > > I seem to be able to trigger it quite reliably by using mobile data > while traveling on the train and doing normal remote work. Here in > Switzerland I often see RTTs in excess of 10 seconds. In France I have > seen more than two MINUTES. wow! Were you able to trace it down? (like, on which device it happend) > Maybe I should start setting up systematic measurements. For example, > if I just sent pings both from my laptop to a well-connected fixed host, > and vice-versa, while capturing all ICMP packets on both ends, I should > be able to learn about bufferbloat in both directions. Having tried to debug some bufferbloat problems in a complex enterprise-network, it is extremely hard to pinpoint where the bufferbloat happens. Especially on such kind of a train network, where there is possible either a VPN or GRE-tunnel involved to get the data out on the Internet... If you have macOS Monterey, you could run the networkQuality tool to see how much bufferbloat there is. Cheers, Christoph > It would be even better to have this in a mobile (web) app that could > record/send location data from the mobile node, to spot the regions > (presumably around tunnels and other connectivity-challenged areas) > where the problem tends to occur most often. Alternatively, correlate > the probe timestamps with real-time location data provided by the > railway company. > > Cheers, > -- > Simon. > _______________________________________________ > Rpm mailing list > Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm