From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (bobcat.rjmcmahon.com [45.33.58.123]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C35F73CB37; Tue, 14 Mar 2023 12:54:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.106] (c-69-181-111-171.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [69.181.111.171]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C39271EEE8; Tue, 14 Mar 2023 09:54:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 bobcat.rjmcmahon.com C39271EEE8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rjmcmahon.com; s=bobcat; t=1678812841; bh=OZcg1cM6ha+dqTGRJveg++Jm0fHxGHu5Y73Xxovh4zc=; h=In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Date:To:CC:From; b=W1iUxv9vuAiDLiB9duB8/QAn3XszGOululIucMocNofMeaHMk/aLFHvGnQvQlhEF/ MeCXqVaKcXJqHwAua5atVNSyVwQYBzTa7ikIEwkIqOJ2txcmxVT26FynZUz3Ny6Kpv t97snposI8+RM2B2UJLpNSeG/PIwq1atzKfaU31w= In-Reply-To: <2ab2983d-6beb-49cb-8c35-e481cbfdc7a3@Spark> References: <77CCAD19-07E0-4F9E-88C1-D207CF7BF376@cable.comcast.com> <83ffc0dad19e3343e49271889369cefc@rjmcmahon.com> <3CD0B9E6-0B2A-4A70-8F53-ED0822DF77A6@gmx.de> <13DE6E53-665F-4C20-BBE2-70E685421E9D@gmx.de> <22C819FA-DDD7-4B9B-8C09-8008D4273287@gmx.de> <5e7fac51071bdbb20837e72e7eedfc7c@rjmcmahon.com> <3f45d2a0b6e46d7b2775fb801e805f93@rjmcmahon.com> <70F71290-C6CB-4D19-8A88-F0F17C0BDDA2@gmx.de> <5e0cd693c4749d128dbb48d6c1129071@rjmcmahon.com> <2ab2983d-6beb-49cb-8c35-e481cbfdc7a3@Spark> X-Referenced-Uid: 0000ff74567702d5 Thread-Topic: Re: [Rpm] [Starlink] On FiWi X-Blue-Identity: !l=1114&o=43&fo=8760&pl=974&po=0&qs=PREFIX&f=HTML&m=!%3AODY4NDIxODAtZDYzYS00ZmFiLTk1N2EtZjE0NWVlYzg4ZGQ1%3ASU5CT1g%3D%3AMDAwMGZmNzQ1Njc3MDJkNQ%3D%3D%3AANSWERED&p=967&q=SHOW X-Is-Generated-Message-Id: true User-Agent: Android MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----TEUBJGSDNSEB315CK26X5Z5WQF3Z96" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Robert McMahon Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 09:54:01 -0700 To: Mike Puchol CC: Dave Taht via Starlink , Rpm , libreqos , bloat Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Rpm] [Starlink] On FiWi X-BeenThere: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 16:54:03 -0000 ------TEUBJGSDNSEB315CK26X5Z5WQF3Z96 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi Mike, I'm thinking more of fiber to the room=2E The last few meters are= wifi everything else is fiber=2E=2E Those radios would be a max of 20' fro= m the associated STA=2E Then at phy rates of 2=2E8Gb/s per spatial stream= =2E The common MIMO is 2x2 so each radio head or wifi transceiver supports = 5=2E6G, no queueing delay=2E Wholesale is $5 and retail $19=2E95 per plugga= ble transceiver=2E Sold at Home Depot next to the irrigation aisle=2E 10 pe= r house is $199 and each room gets a dedicated 5=2E8G phy rate=2E Need more= devices in a space? Pick an RRH with more cmos radios=2E Also, the antenna= s would be patch antenna and fill the room properly=2E Then plug in an opti= onal sensor for fire alerting=2E A digression=2E A lot of signal processi= ng engineers have been working on TX beam forming=2E The best beam is fiber= =2E Just do that=2E It even can turn corners and goes exactly to where it's= needed at very low energies=2E This is similar to pvc pipes in irrigation = systems=2E They're designed to take water to spray heads=2E The cost is th= e cable plant=2E That's labor more than materials=2E Similar for irrigation= , pvc is inexpensive and lasts decades=2E A return labor means use future p= roof materials, e=2Eg=2E fiber=2E Bob On Mar 14, 2023, 4:10 AM, at 4:10= AM, Mike Puchol via Rpm wrote: >Hi Bob, > = >You hit on a set of very valid points, which I'll complement with my >view= s on where the industry (the bit of it that affects WISPs) is >heading, and= what I saw at the MWC in Barcelona=2E Love the FiWi term :-) > >I have see= n the vendors that supply WISPs, such as Ubiquiti, Cambium, >and Mimosa, bu= t also newer entrants such as Tarana, increase the >performance and on-pape= r specs of their equipment=2E My examples below >are centered on the Africa= n market, if you operate in Europe or the US, >where you can charge custome= rs a higher install fee, or even charge >them a break-up fee if they don't = return equipment, the economics work=2E > >Where currently a ~$500 sector r= adio could serve ~60 endpoints, at a >cost of ~$50 per endpoint (I use this= term in place of ODU/CPE, the >antenna that you mount on the roof), and su= pply ~2=2E5 Mbps CIR per >endpoint, the evolution is now a ~$2,000+ sector = radio, a $200 >endpoint, capability for ~150 endpoints per sector, and ~25 = Mbps CIR >per endpoint=2E > >If every customer a WISP installs represents, = say, $100 CAPEX at >install time ($50 for the antenna + cabling, router, et= c), and you >charge a $30 install fee, you have $70 to recover, and you rec= over from >the monthly contribution the customer makes=2E If the contributi= on after >OPEX is, say, $10, it takes you 7 months to recover the full inst= all >cost=2E Not bad, doable even in low-income markets=2E > >Fast-forward = to the next-generation version=2E Now, the CAPEX at install >is $250, you n= eed to recover $220, and it will take you 22 months, >which is above the us= ual 18 months that investors look for=2E > >The focus, thereby, has to be t= he lever that has the largest effect on >the unit economics - which is the = per-customer cost=2E I have drawn what >my ideal FiWi network would look li= ke: > > > >Taking you through this - we start with a 1-port, low-cost EPON = OLT (or >you could go for 2, 4, 8 ports as you add capacity)=2E This OLT ha= s >capacity for 64 ONUs on its single port=2E Instead of connecting the >ty= pical fiber infrastructure with kilometers of cables which break, >require = maintenance, etc=2E we insert an EPON to Ethernet converter (I >added "magi= c" because these don't exist AFAIK)=2E > >This converter allows us to conne= ct our $2k sector radio, and serve the >$200 endpoints (ODUs) over wireless= point-to-multipoint up to 10km >away=2E Each ODU then has a reverse conver= ter, which gives us EPON again=2E > >Once we are back on EPON, we can inser= t splitters, for example, >pre-connectorized outdoor 1:16 boxes=2E Every cu= stomer install now >involves a 100 meter roll of pre-connectorized 2-core d= rop cable, and a >$20 EPON ONU=2E > >Using this deployment method, we could= connect up to 16 customers to a >single $200 endpoint, so the enpoint CAPE= X per customer is now $12=2E5=2E >Add the ONU, cable, etc=2E and we have a = per-install CAPEX of $82=2E5 >(assuming the same $50 of extras we had befor= e), and an even shorter >break-even=2E In addition, as the endpoints suppor= t higher capacity, we >can provision at least the same, if not more, capaci= ty per customer=2E > >Other advantages: the $200 ODU is no longer customer = equipment and >CAPEX, but network equipment, and as such, can operate under= a longer >break-even timeline, and be financed by infrastructure PE funds,= for >example=2E As a result, churn has a much lower financial impact on th= e >operator=2E > >The main reason why this wouldn't work today is that EPON= , as we know, >is synchronous, and requires the OLT to orchestrate the amou= nt of time >each ONU can transmit, and when=2E Having wireless hops and med= ia >conversions will introduce latencies which can break down the >communic= ations (e=2Eg=2E one ONU may transmit, get delayed on the radio >link, and = end up overlapping another ONU that transmitted on the next >slot)=2E Thus,= either the "magic" box needs to account for this, or an >new hybrid EPON-w= ireless protocol developed=2E > >My main point here: the industry is moving= away from the unconnected=2E >All the claims I heard and saw at MWC about = "connecting the >unconnected" had zero resonance with the financial drivers= that the >unconnected really operate under, on top of IT literacy, digital= >skills, devices, power=2E=2E=2E > >Best, > >Mike >On Mar 14, 2023 at 05:2= 7 +0100, rjmcmahon via Starlink >, wrot= e: >> To change the topic - curious to thoughts on FiWi=2E >> >> Imagine a = world with no copper cable called FiWi (Fiber,VCSEL/CMOS >> Radios, Antenna= s) and which is point to point inside a building >> connected to virtualize= d APs fiber hops away=2E Each remote radio head >> (RRH) would consume 5W o= r less and only when active=2E No need for >things >> like zigbee, or meshe= s, or threads as each radio has a fiber >connection >> via Corning's actifi= or equivalent=2E Eliminate the AP/Client power >> imbalance=2E Plastics al= so can house smoke or other sensors=2E >> >> Some reminders from Paul Baran= in 1994 (and from David Reed) >> >> o) Shorter range rf transceivers conne= cted to fiber could produce a >> significant improvement - - tremendous imp= rovement, really=2E >> o) a mixture of terrestrial links plus shorter range= radio links has >the >> effect of increasing by orders and orders of magni= tude the amount of >> frequency spectrum that can be made available=2E >> o= ) By authorizing high power to support a few users to reach slightly >> lon= ger distances we deprive ourselves of the opportunity to serve the >> many= =2E >> o) Communications systems can be built with 10dB ratio >> o) Digital= transmission when properly done allows a small signal to >> noise ratio to= be used successfully to retrieve an error free signal=2E >> o) And, never = forget, any transmission capacity not used is wasted >> forever, like water= over the dam=2E Not using such techniques represent >> lost opportunity=2E= >> >> And on waveguides: >> >> o) "Fiber transmission loss is ~0=2E5dB/km = for single mode fiber, >> independent of modulation" >> o) =E2=80=9CCopper = cables and PCB traces are very frequency dependent=2E At >> 100Gb/s, the lo= ss is in dB/inch=2E" >> o) "Free space: the power density of the radio wave= s decreases with >the >> square of distance from the transmitting antenna d= ue to spreading of >the >> electromagnetic energy in space according to the= inverse square law" >> >> The sunk costs & long-lived parts of FiWi are th= e fiber and the CPE >> plastics & antennas, as CMOS radios+ & fiber/laser, = e=2Eg=2E VCSEL could >be >> pluggable, allowing for field upgrades=2E Just = like swapping out SFP in >a >> data center=2E >> >> This approach basically= drives out WiFi latency by eliminating shared >> queues and increases capa= city by orders of magnitude by leveraging >10dB >> in the spatial dimension= , all of which is achieved by a physical >design=2E >> Just place enough RR= Hs as needed (similar to a pop up sprinkler in an >> irrigation system=2E) = >> >> Start and build this for an MDU and the value of the building >improv= es=2E >> Sadly, there seems no way to capture that value other than over lo= ng >> term use=2E It doesn't matter whether the leader of the HOA tries to = >> capture the value or if a last mile provider tries=2E The value remains = >> sunk or hidden with nothing on the asset side of the balance sheet=2E >>= We've got a CAPEX spend that has to be made up via "OPEX returns" >over >>= years=2E >> >> But the asset is there=2E >> >> How do we do this? >> >> Bo= b >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing li= st >> Starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >> https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2En= et/listinfo/starlink ------TEUBJGSDNSEB315CK26X5Z5WQF3Z96 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Mike,
=
I'm thinking more of fiber to the room=2E The = last few meters are wifi everything else is fiber=2E=2E Those radios would = be a max of 20' from the associated STA=2E Then at phy rates of 2=2E8Gb/s p= er spatial stream=2E The common MIMO is 2x2 so each radio head or wifi tran= sceiver supports 5=2E6G, no queueing delay=2E Wholesale is $5 and retail $1= 9=2E95 per pluggable transceiver=2E Sold at Home Depot next to the irrigati= on aisle=2E 10 per house is $199 and each room gets a dedicated 5=2E8G phy = rate=2E Need more devices in a space? Pick an RRH with more cmos radios=2E = Also, the antennas would be patch antenna and fill the room properly=2E The= n plug in an optional sensor for fire alerting=2E


A digression=2E A lot of signal processing engineers have been w= orking on TX beam forming=2E The best beam is fiber=2E Just do that=2E It e= ven can turn corners and goes exactly to where it's needed at very low ener= gies=2E This is similar to pvc pipes in irrigation systems=2E They're desig= ned to take water to spray heads=2E

The cos= t is the cable plant=2E That's labor more than materials=2E Similar for irr= igation, pvc is inexpensive and lasts decades=2E A return labor means use f= uture proof materials, e=2Eg=2E fiber=2E

Bo= b
On Mar 14, 2023, at 4:10 AM, Mike Pucho= l via Rpm <rpm@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet> wrote:
Hi Bob,

You hit on a set of very valid poi= nts, which I'll complement with my views on where the industry (the bit of = it that affects WISPs) is heading, and what I saw at the MWC in Barcelona= =2E Love the FiWi term :-)

I have seen the vendors that supp= ly WISPs, such as Ubiquiti, Cambium, and Mimosa, but also newer entrants su= ch as Tarana, increase the performance and on-paper specs of their equipmen= t=2E My examples below are centered on the African market, if you operate i= n Europe or the US, where you can charge customers a higher install fee, or= even charge them a break-up fee if they don't return equipment, the econom= ics work=2E

Where currently a ~$500 sector radio could serve= ~60 endpoints, at a cost of ~$50 per endpoint (I use this term in place of= ODU/CPE, the antenna that you mount on the roof), and supply ~2=2E5 Mbps C= IR per endpoint, the evolution is now a ~$2,000+ sector radio, a $200 endpo= int, capability for ~150 endpoints per sector, and ~25 Mbps CIR per endpoin= t=2E

If every customer a WISP installs represents, say, $100= CAPEX at install time ($50 for the antenna + cabling, router, etc), and yo= u charge a $30 install fee, you have $70 to recover, and you recover from t= he monthly contribution the customer makes=2E If the contribution after OPE= X is, say, $10, it takes you 7 months to recover the full install cost=2E N= ot bad, doable even in low-income markets=2E

Fast-forward to= the next-generation version=2E Now, the CAPEX at install is $250, you need= to recover $220, and it will take you 22 months, which is above the usual = 18 months that investors look for=2E

The focus, thereby, has= to be the lever that has the largest effect on the unit economics - which = is the per-customer cost=2E I have drawn what my ideal FiWi network would l= ook like:



Taking you through = this - we start with a 1-port, low-cost EPON OLT (or you could go for 2, 4,= 8 ports as you add capacity)=2E This OLT has capacity for 64 ONUs on its s= ingle port=2E Instead of connecting the typical fiber infrastructure with k= ilometers of cables which break, require maintenance, etc=2E we insert an E= PON to Ethernet converter (I added "magic" because these don't exist AFAIK)= =2E

This converter allows us to connect our $2k sector radio= , and serve the $200 endpoints (ODUs) over wireless point-to-multipoint up = to 10km away=2E Each ODU then has a reverse converter, which gives us EPON = again=2E

Once we are back on EPON, we can insert splitters, = for example, pre-connectorized outdoor 1:16 boxes=2E Every customer install= now involves a 100 meter roll of pre-connectorized 2-core drop cable, and = a $20 EPON ONU=2E 

Using this deployment method, we cou= ld connect up to 16 customers to a single $200 endpoint, so the enpoint CAP= EX per customer is now $12=2E5=2E Add the ONU, cable, etc=2E and we have a = per-install CAPEX of $82=2E5 (assuming the same $50 of extras we had before= ), and an even shorter break-even=2E In addition, as the endpoints support = higher capacity, we can provision at least the same, if not more, capacity = per customer=2E

Other advantages: the $200 ODU is no longer = customer equipment and CAPEX, but network equipment, and as such, can opera= te under a longer break-even timeline, and be financed by infrastructure PE= funds, for example=2E As a result, churn has a much lower financial impact= on the operator=2E

The main reason why this wouldn't work t= oday is that EPON, as we know, is synchronous, and requires the OLT to orch= estrate the amount of time each ONU can transmit, and when=2E Having wirele= ss hops and media conversions will introduce latencies which can break down= the communications (e=2Eg=2E one ONU may transmit, get delayed on the radi= o link, and end up overlapping another ONU that transmitted on the next slo= t)=2E Thus, either the "magic" box needs to account for this, or an new hyb= rid EPON-wireless protocol developed=2E

My main point here: = the industry is moving away from the unconnected=2E All the claims I heard = and saw at MWC about "connecting the unconnected" had zero resonance with t= he financial drivers that the unconnected really operate under, on top of I= T literacy, digital skills, devices, power=2E=2E=2E
=

= Best,

Mike
On Mar 14, 2023 at 05:27 +0100, rjmcmahon via Starlink <starlink@li= sts=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet>, wrote:
To change the topic - curious = to thoughts on FiWi=2E

Imagine a world with no copper cable = called FiWi (Fiber,VCSEL/CMOS
Radios, Antennas) and which is point t= o point inside a building
connected to virtualized APs fiber hops aw= ay=2E Each remote radio head
(RRH) would consume 5W or less and only= when active=2E No need for things
like zigbee, or meshes, or thread= s as each radio has a fiber connection
via Corning's actifi or equiv= alent=2E Eliminate the AP/Client power
imbalance=2E Plastics also ca= n house smoke or other sensors=2E

Some reminders from Paul B= aran in 1994 (and from David Reed)

o) Shorter range rf trans= ceivers connected to fiber could produce a
significant improvement -= - tremendous improvement, really=2E
o) a mixture of terrestrial lin= ks plus shorter range radio links has the
effect of increasing by or= ders and orders of magnitude the amount of
frequency spectrum that c= an be made available=2E
o) By authorizing high power to support a fe= w users to reach slightly
longer distances we deprive ourselves of t= he opportunity to serve the
many=2E
o) Communications systems= can be built with 10dB ratio
o) Digital transmission when properly = done allows a small signal to
noise ratio to be used successfully to= retrieve an error free signal=2E
o) And, never forget, any transmis= sion capacity not used is wasted
forever, like water over the dam=2E= Not using such techniques represent
lost opportunity=2E
<= br> And on waveguides:

o) "Fiber transmission loss is ~0=2E5= dB/km for single mode fiber,
independent of modulation"
o) = =E2=80=9CCopper cables and PCB traces are very frequency dependent=2E At =
100Gb/s, the loss is in dB/inch=2E"
o) "Free space: the power d= ensity of the radio waves decreases with the
square of distance from= the transmitting antenna due to spreading of the
electromagnetic en= ergy in space according to the inverse square law"

The sunk = costs & long-lived parts of FiWi are the fiber and the CPE
plast= ics & antennas, as CMOS radios+ & fiber/laser, e=2Eg=2E VCSEL could= be
pluggable, allowing for field upgrades=2E Just like swapping out= SFP in a
data center=2E

This approach basically driv= es out WiFi latency by eliminating shared
queues and increases capac= ity by orders of magnitude by leveraging 10dB
in the spatial dimensi= on, all of which is achieved by a physical design=2E
Just place enou= gh RRHs as needed (similar to a pop up sprinkler in an
irrigation sy= stem=2E)

Start and build this for an MDU and the value of th= e building improves=2E
Sadly, there seems no way to capture that val= ue other than over long
term use=2E It doesn't matter whether the le= ader of the HOA tries to
capture the value or if a last mile provide= r tries=2E The value remains
sunk or hidden with nothing on the asse= t side of the balance sheet=2E
We've got a CAPEX spend that has to b= e made up via "OPEX returns" over
years=2E

But the as= set is there=2E

How do we do this?

Bob
= _______________________________________________
Starlink mailing li= st
Starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet
https://lists=2Ebufferb= loat=2Enet/listinfo/starlink
------TEUBJGSDNSEB315CK26X5Z5WQF3Z96--