From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (bobcat.rjmcmahon.com [45.33.58.123]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C88583CB37; Tue, 14 Mar 2023 13:35:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.106] (c-69-181-111-171.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [69.181.111.171]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C1F421EEE8; Tue, 14 Mar 2023 10:35:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 bobcat.rjmcmahon.com C1F421EEE8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rjmcmahon.com; s=bobcat; t=1678815317; bh=l5s5a1TN0/ko/H0PVRIDgI89YYlKKA9F1aWLrW5H+wo=; h=In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Date:To:CC:From; b=GzwBy73VrsSUQDmonLzauWU+SbvjYey9xt3TALXrIPigfSCyR2zhj/XThHtjY2xII 4z6VkxSwlTl8DzeDJkCb+V47liIkEFBUuRieiFETrQE6sZfO3vboH3gJSS0nkjjETU Z6qCD7Lgak531+AQ2sASKCBki5fzxrGrCffJvuqk= In-Reply-To: <70CBB03C-4394-4A93-BBB5-7449DC1AAF9C@gmx.de> References: <3CD0B9E6-0B2A-4A70-8F53-ED0822DF77A6@gmx.de> <13DE6E53-665F-4C20-BBE2-70E685421E9D@gmx.de> <22C819FA-DDD7-4B9B-8C09-8008D4273287@gmx.de> <5e7fac51071bdbb20837e72e7eedfc7c@rjmcmahon.com> <3f45d2a0b6e46d7b2775fb801e805f93@rjmcmahon.com> <70F71290-C6CB-4D19-8A88-F0F17C0BDDA2@gmx.de> <5e0cd693c4749d128dbb48d6c1129071@rjmcmahon.com> <2ab2983d-6beb-49cb-8c35-e481cbfdc7a3@Spark> <89c55d67-86f0-494d-a09e-c9aeebe46dc0@rjmcmahon.com> <70CBB03C-4394-4A93-BBB5-7449DC1AAF9C@gmx.de> X-Referenced-Uid: 0000ff7a567702d5 Thread-Topic: Re: [Bloat] [Rpm] [Starlink] On FiWi User-Agent: Android X-Is-Generated-Message-Id: true MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----84O7RIO0HNJYFPQRJRZB3SY9HA628M" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Robert McMahon Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 10:35:16 -0700 To: Sebastian Moeller CC: Mike Puchol , Dave Taht via Starlink , Rpm ,libreqos , bloat Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Rpm] [Bloat] [Starlink] On FiWi X-BeenThere: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 17:35:19 -0000 ------84O7RIO0HNJYFPQRJRZB3SY9HA628M Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 You could always do it yourself=2E=C2=A0 Most people need high skilled ne= twork engineers to provide them IT services=2E This need is only going to g= row and grow=2E We can help by producing better and simpler offerings, be t= hey DIY or by service providers=2E Steve Job's almost didn't support the i= Phone development because he hated "the orifices=2E" Probably time for many= of us to revisit our belief set=2E Does it move the needle, even if imperf= ectly? FiWi blows the needle off the gauge by my judgment=2E Who does it i= s secondary=2E Bob On Mar 14, 2023, 10:11 AM, at 10:11 AM, Sebastian Mo= eller wrote: >Hi Bob, > >technically attractive, but th= e "charge per radio head" and :virtualize >the AP" are show stoppers for me= =2E=2E=2E I like my ISP, but I have a clear >understanding that my ISPs goa= ls and my goals are not perfectly aligned >so I would never give them contr= ol of my in house network and even less >if they start moving things into t= he clown^W cloud=2E That means running >important functions on some one els= e's computers, giving that some one >else effectively too much power=2E > >= Regards > Sebastian > >P=2ES=2E: The technical side you propose will also w= ork just as well with >me in control, even though that lacks a business to = make it attractive >for ISPs ;) > > >> On Mar 14, 2023, at 18:06, Robert Mc= Mahon via Bloat > wrote: >> >> The ISP co= uld charge per radio head and manage the system from a FiWi >head end which= they own=2E Virtualize the APs=2E Get rid of SoC complexity >and costly O&= M via simplicity=2E Eliminate all the incremental >engineering that has gon= e astray, e=2Eg=2E bloat and over powered APs=2E >> >> Bob >> On Mar 14, = 2023, at 9:49 AM, Robert McMahon >wrote: >> Hi = Mike, >> >> I'm thinking more of fiber to the room=2E The last few meters = are wifi >everything else is fiber=2E=2E Those radios would be a max of 20'= from the >associated STA=2E Then at phy rates of 2=2E8Gb/s per spatial str= eam=2E The >common MIMO is 2x2 so each radio head or wifi transceiver suppo= rts >5=2E6G, no queueing delay=2E Wholesale is $5 and retail $19=2E95 per >= pluggable transceiver=2E Sold at Home Depot next to the irrigation aisle=2E= >10 per house is $199 and each room gets a dedicated 5=2E8G phy rate=2E Ne= ed >more devices in a space? Pick an RRH with more cmos radios=2E Also, the= >antennas would be patch antenna and fill the room properly=2E Then plug >= in an optional sensor for fire alerting=2E >> >> >> A digression=2E A lot= of signal processing engineers have been working >on TX beam forming=2E Th= e best beam is fiber=2E Just do that=2E It even can >turn corners and goes = exactly to where it's needed at very low >energies=2E This is similar to pv= c pipes in irrigation systems=2E They're >designed to take water to spray h= eads=2E >> >> The cost is the cable plant=2E That's labor more than materi= als=2E >Similar for irrigation, pvc is inexpensive and lasts decades=2E A r= eturn >labor means use future proof materials, e=2Eg=2E fiber=2E >> >> Bob= >> On Mar 14, 2023, at 4:10 AM, Mike Puchol via Rpm > wrote: >> Hi Bob, >> >> You hit on a set of very valid points,= which I'll complement with my >views on where the industry (the bit of it = that affects WISPs) is >heading, and what I saw at the MWC in Barcelona=2E = Love the FiWi term :-) > >> >> I have seen the vendors that supply WISPs, = such as Ubiquiti, Cambium, >and Mimosa, but also newer entrants such as Tar= ana, increase the >performance and on-paper specs of their equipment=2E My = examples below >are centered on the African market, if you operate in Europ= e or the US, >where you can charge customers a higher install fee, or even = charge >them a break-up fee if they don't return equipment, the economics w= ork=2E > >> >> Where currently a ~$500 sector radio could serve ~60 endpoi= nts, at a >cost of ~$50 per endpoint (I use this term in place of ODU/CPE, = the >antenna that you mount on the roof), and supply ~2=2E5 Mbps CIR per >e= ndpoint, the evolution is now a ~$2,000+ sector radio, a $200 >endpoint, ca= pability for ~150 endpoints per sector, and ~25 Mbps CIR >per endpoint=2E = >> >> If every customer a WISP installs represents, say, $100 CAPEX at >in= stall time ($50 for the antenna + cabling, router, etc), and you >charge a = $30 install fee, you have $70 to recover, and you recover from >the monthly= contribution the customer makes=2E If the contribution after >OPEX is, say= , $10, it takes you 7 months to recover the full install >cost=2E Not bad, = doable even in low-income markets=2E >> >> Fast-forward to the next-gener= ation version=2E Now, the CAPEX at >install is $250, you need to recover $2= 20, and it will take you 22 >months, which is above the usual 18 months tha= t investors look for=2E >> >> The focus, thereby, has to be the lever tha= t has the largest effect >on the unit economics - which is the per-customer= cost=2E I have drawn >what my ideal FiWi network would look like: >> >> = >> >> Taking you through this - we start with a 1-port, low-cost EPON OL= T >(or you could go for 2, 4, 8 ports as you add capacity)=2E This OLT has = >capacity for 64 ONUs on its single port=2E Instead of connecting the >typi= cal fiber infrastructure with kilometers of cables which break, >require ma= intenance, etc=2E we insert an EPON to Ethernet converter (I >added "magic"= because these don't exist AFAIK)=2E >> >> This converter allows us to co= nnect our $2k sector radio, and serve >the $200 endpoints (ODUs) over wirel= ess point-to-multipoint up to 10km >away=2E Each ODU then has a reverse con= verter, which gives us EPON again=2E > >> >> Once we are back on EPON, we = can insert splitters, for example, >pre-connectorized outdoor 1:16 boxes=2E= Every customer install now >involves a 100 meter roll of pre-connectorized= 2-core drop cable, and a >$20 EPON ONU=2E >> >> Using this deployment m= ethod, we could connect up to 16 customers to >a single $200 endpoint, so t= he enpoint CAPEX per customer is now $12=2E5=2E >Add the ONU, cable, etc=2E= and we have a per-install CAPEX of $82=2E5 >(assuming the same $50 of extr= as we had before), and an even shorter >break-even=2E In addition, as the e= ndpoints support higher capacity, we >can provision at least the same, if n= ot more, capacity per customer=2E >> >> Other advantages: the $200 ODU is= no longer customer equipment and >CAPEX, but network equipment, and as suc= h, can operate under a longer >break-even timeline, and be financed by infr= astructure PE funds, for >example=2E As a result, churn has a much lower fi= nancial impact on the >operator=2E >> >> The main reason why this wouldn'= t work today is that EPON, as we >know, is synchronous, and requires the OL= T to orchestrate the amount of >time each ONU can transmit, and when=2E Hav= ing wireless hops and media >conversions will introduce latencies which can= break down the >communications (e=2Eg=2E one ONU may transmit, get delayed= on the radio >link, and end up overlapping another ONU that transmitted on= the next >slot)=2E Thus, either the "magic" box needs to account for this,= or an >new hybrid EPON-wireless protocol developed=2E >> >> My main poin= t here: the industry is moving away from the unconnected=2E >All the claims= I heard and saw at MWC about "connecting the >unconnected" had zero resona= nce with the financial drivers that the >unconnected really operate under, = on top of IT literacy, digital >skills, devices, power=2E=2E=2E >> >> Bes= t, >> >> Mike >> On Mar 14, 2023 at 05:27 +0100, rjmcmahon via Starlink >= , wrote: >>> To change the topic - cur= ious to thoughts on FiWi=2E >>> >>> Imagine a world with no copper cable = called FiWi (Fiber,VCSEL/CMOS >>> Radios, Antennas) and which is point to = point inside a building >>> connected to virtualized APs fiber hops away= =2E Each remote radio head > >>> (RRH) would consume 5W or less and only wh= en active=2E No need for >things >>> like zigbee, or meshes, or threads as= each radio has a fiber >connection >>> via Corning's actifi or equivalent= =2E Eliminate the AP/Client power >>> imbalance=2E Plastics also can house= smoke or other sensors=2E >>> >>> Some reminders from Paul Baran in 1994= (and from David Reed) >>> >>> o) Shorter range rf transceivers connected= to fiber could produce a >>> significant improvement - - tremendous impro= vement, really=2E >>> o) a mixture of terrestrial links plus shorter range= radio links has >the >>> effect of increasing by orders and orders of mag= nitude the amount of > >>> frequency spectrum that can be made available=2E= >>> o) By authorizing high power to support a few users to reach >slightl= y >>> longer distances we deprive ourselves of the opportunity to serve >t= he >>> many=2E >>> o) Communications systems can be built with 10dB ratio= >>> o) Digital transmission when properly done allows a small signal to = >>> noise ratio to be used successfully to retrieve an error free >signal= =2E >>> o) And, never forget, any transmission capacity not used is wasted= >>> forever, like water over the dam=2E Not using such techniques >repres= ent >>> lost opportunity=2E >>> >>> And on waveguides: >>> >>> o) "Fib= er transmission loss is ~0=2E5dB/km for single mode fiber, >>> independent= of modulation" >>> o) =E2=80=9CCopper cables and PCB traces are very freq= uency dependent=2E At >>> 100Gb/s, the loss is in dB/inch=2E" >>> o) "Fre= e space: the power density of the radio waves decreases with >the >>> squa= re of distance from the transmitting antenna due to spreading of >the >>> = electromagnetic energy in space according to the inverse square law" > >>> = >>> The sunk costs & long-lived parts of FiWi are the fiber and the CPE >= >> plastics & antennas, as CMOS radios+ & fiber/laser, e=2Eg=2E VCSEL could= >be >>> pluggable, allowing for field upgrades=2E Just like swapping out = SFP >in a >>> data center=2E >>> >>> This approach basically drives out = WiFi latency by eliminating >shared >>> queues and increases capacity by o= rders of magnitude by leveraging >10dB >>> in the spatial dimension, all o= f which is achieved by a physical >design=2E >>> Just place enough RRHs as= needed (similar to a pop up sprinkler in >an >>> irrigation system=2E) >= >> >>> Start and build this for an MDU and the value of the building >impr= oves=2E >>> Sadly, there seems no way to capture that value other than ove= r long > >>> term use=2E It doesn't matter whether the leader of the HOA tr= ies to >>> capture the value or if a last mile provider tries=2E The value= >remains >>> sunk or hidden with nothing on the asset side of the balance= sheet=2E >>> We've got a CAPEX spend that has to be made up via "OPEX ret= urns" >over >>> years=2E >>> >>> But the asset is there=2E >>> >>> How= do we do this? >>> >>> Bob >>> ________________________________________= _______ >>> Starlink mailing list >>> Starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet = >>> https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/starlink >> ______________= _________________________________ >> Bloat mailing list >> Bloat@lists=2Ebu= fferbloat=2Enet >> https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/bloat ------84O7RIO0HNJYFPQRJRZB3SY9HA628M Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
You could al= ways do it yourself=2E 

Most people n= eed high skilled network engineers to provide them IT services=2E This need= is only going to grow and grow=2E We can help by producing better and simp= ler offerings, be they DIY or by service providers=2E

Steve Job's almost didn't support the iPhone development because= he hated "the orifices=2E" Probably time for many of us to revisit our bel= ief set=2E Does it move the needle, even if imperfectly?

FiWi blows the needle off the gauge by my judgment=2E Who doe= s it is secondary=2E

Bob
On Mar 14, 2023, at 10:11 AM, Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx=2Ede>= wrote:
Hi Bob,

technically attractive, but the "charge per rad=
io head" and :virtualize the AP" are show stoppers for me=2E=2E=2E I like m=
y ISP, but I have a clear understanding that my ISPs goals and my goals are=
 not perfectly aligned so I would never give them control of my in house ne=
twork and even less if they start moving things into the clown^W cloud=2E T=
hat means running important functions on some one else's computers, giving =
that some one else effectively too much power=2E

Regards
 Sebasti=
an

P=2ES=2E: The technical side you propose will also work just as w=
ell with me in control, even though that lacks a business to make it attrac=
tive for ISPs ;)


 
 This converter allows us to connect our $2k sector radio,=
 and serve the $200 endpoints (ODUs) over wireless point-to-multipoint up t=
o 10km away=2E Each ODU then has a reverse converter, which gives us EPON a=
gain=2E 
 
 Once we are back on EPON, we can insert splitters, for ex=
ample, pre-connectorized outdoor 1:16 boxes=2E Every customer install now i=
nvolves a 100 meter roll of pre-connectorized 2-core drop cable, and a $20 =
EPON ONU=2E  
 
 Using this deployment method, we could connect up to=
 16 customers to a single $200 endpoint, so the enpoint CAPEX per customer =
is now $12=2E5=2E Add the ONU, cable, etc=2E and we have a per-install CAPE=
X of $82=2E5 (assuming the same $50 of extras we had before), and an even s=
horter break-even=2E In addition, as the endpoints support higher capacity,=
 we can provision at least the same, if not more, capacity per customer=2E =

 
 Other advantages: the $200 ODU is no longer customer equipment an=
d CAPEX, but network equipment, and as such, can operate under a longer bre=
ak-even timeline, and be financed by infrastructure PE funds, for example=
=2E As a result, churn has a much lower financial impact on the operator=2E=
 
 
 The main reason why this wouldn't work today is that EPON, as we=
 know, is synchronous, and requires the OLT to orchestrate the amount of ti=
me each ONU can transmit, and when=2E Having wireless hops and media conver=
sions will introduce latencies which can break down the communications (e=
=2Eg=2E one ONU may transmit, get delayed on the radio link, and end up ove=
rlapping another ONU that transmitted on the next slot)=2E Thus, either the=
 "magic" box needs to account for this, or an new hybrid EPON-wireless prot=
ocol developed=2E 
 
 My main point here: the industry is moving away=
 from the unconnected=2E All the claims I heard and saw at MWC about "conne=
cting the unconnected" had zero resonance with the financial drivers that t=
he unconnected really operate under, on top of IT literacy, digital skills,=
 devices, power=2E=2E=2E 
 
 Best, 
 
 Mike
 On Mar 14, 2023=
 at 05:27 +0100, rjmcmahon via Starlink <starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2E=
net>, wrote: 
 To ch=
ange the topic - curious to thoughts on FiWi=2E 
 
 Imagine a world w=
ith no copper cable called FiWi (Fiber,VCSEL/CMOS 
 Radios, Antennas) an=
d which is point to point inside a building 
 connected to virtualized A=
Ps fiber hops away=2E Each remote radio head 
 (RRH) would consume 5W or=
 less and only when active=2E No need for things 
 like zigbee, or meshe=
s, or threads as each radio has a fiber connection 
 via Corning's actif=
i or equivalent=2E Eliminate the AP/Client power 
 imbalance=2E Plastics=
 also can house smoke or other sensors=2E 
 
 Some reminders from Pau=
l Baran in 1994 (and from David Reed) 
 
 o) Shorter range rf transce=
ivers connected to fiber could produce a 
 significant improvement - - t=
remendous improvement, really=2E 
 o) a mixture of terrestrial links plu=
s shorter range radio links has the 
 effect of increasing by orders and=
 orders of magnitude the amount of 
 frequency spectrum that can be made=
 available=2E 
 o) By authorizing high power to support a few users to r=
each slightly 
 longer distances we deprive ourselves of the opportunity=
 to serve the 
 many=2E 
 o) Communications systems can be built with=
 10dB ratio 
 o) Digital transmission when properly done allows a small =
signal to 
 noise ratio to be used successfully to retrieve an error fre=
e signal=2E 
 o) And, never forget, any transmission capacity not used i=
s wasted 
 forever, like water over the dam=2E Not using such techniques=
 represent 
 lost opportunity=2E 
 
 And on waveguides: 
 
 =
o) "Fiber transmission loss is ~0=2E5dB/km for single mode fiber, 
 inde=
pendent of modulation" 
 o) =E2=80=9CCopper cables and PCB traces are ve=
ry frequency dependent=2E At 
 100Gb/s, the loss is in dB/inch=2E" 
 =
o) "Free space: the power density of the radio waves decreases with the  square of distance from the transmitting antenna due to spreading of the =

 electromagnetic energy in space according to the inverse square law" <=
br> 
 The sunk costs & long-lived parts of FiWi are the fiber and th=
e CPE 
 plastics & antennas, as CMOS radios+ & fiber/laser, e=2E=
g=2E VCSEL could be 
 pluggable, allowing for field upgrades=2E Just lik=
e swapping out SFP in a 
 data center=2E 
 
 This approach basical=
ly drives out WiFi latency by eliminating shared 
 queues and increases =
capacity by orders of magnitude by leveraging 10dB 
 in the spatial dime=
nsion, all of which is achieved by a physical design=2E 
 Just place eno=
ugh RRHs as needed (similar to a pop up sprinkler in an 
 irrigation sys=
tem=2E) 
 
 Start and build this for an MDU and the value of the buil=
ding improves=2E 
 Sadly, there seems no way to capture that value other=
 than over long 
 term use=2E It doesn't matter whether the leader of th=
e HOA tries to 
 capture the value or if a last mile provider tries=2E T=
he value remains 
 sunk or hidden with nothing on the asset side of the =
balance sheet=2E 
 We've got a CAPEX spend that has to be made up via "O=
PEX returns" over 
 years=2E 
 
 But the asset is there=2E 
  How do we do this? 
 
 Bob 

 Starlink mailing list 
=
 Starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet 
 https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/st=
arlink 

 Bloat mailing list
 Bloat@lists=2Eb=
ufferbloat=2Enet
 https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/bloat

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