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From: Robert McMahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>
To: Bruce Perens <bruce@perens.com>
Cc: Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de>,
	Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>,
	 dan <dandenson@gmail.com>,Frantisek Borsik
	<frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>,
	libreqos <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net>,Rpm
	<rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net>, bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: Re: [Rpm] [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2023 15:04:05 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <f53d0007-fa62-4874-9223-384733dea212@rjmcmahon.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAK2MWOsp+C37Rd+22xUiVV4TsmBGRdOa91gGDwoExw=iBNegsQ@mail.gmail.com>

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Hi Bruce,

I think you may be the right guy to solve this. I too remember the days of dry wire sold by the RBOCs.

I found a structured wire fire alarm install to cost $100k for our building or $20k per unit. The labor and materials is about $25k. The other $75k is liability related costs, similar to a bike helmet, $10 in parts, $40 in insurance. So it's not labor nor equipment that drives the expenses. My opinion is poor people shouldn't have to pay for insurance to insurance companies, companies that figure figures for a living.

A digression: I could do an LMR 600 passive cable system looped with Wilkinson power dividers, patch antennas and nests to protect the egress escape ladder for about $10 to $15K. Don't need an SLA. We've basically priced protecting human lives to only rich people.

We need to use technology and our cleverness to fix this version of "expense bloat."

Look at Boston public water for an example. Way too expensive to pipe water in from 15 miles away in the early days. So people who did it claimed alcoholism (and that "immorality") would be eliminated by providing clean and pure potable public water.  Alcholics would choose pathogen free water over spirits. Rich people got enough water for themselves and even for their private fountains so society stopped this initiative.

It was a motivated doctor who taught rich people that their health was tied to public health. And public health was being impacted because pathogens being spread to poor people who didn't get potable public water would by addressed by ubiquitous potable water supplies. The fire chief was put in charge. See Ties That Bind

https://upittpress.org/books/9780822961475/

Now, in the U.S, most do get potable water even to flush a toilet. It's taken for granted.

I think it's on us to do similar for digital communication networks. They're needed far beyond entertainment, and we need to get public safety elements engaged too.

Bob

On Mar 25, 2023, 2:08 PM, at 2:08 PM, Bruce Perens <bruce@perens.com> wrote:
>On Sat, Mar 25, 2023 at 1:44 PM rjmcmahon via Starlink <
>starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital
>> communications infrastructure as life support critical.
>
>
>When I was younger there was a standard way to do this. Fire alarms had
>a
>dedicated pair directly to the fire department or a local alarm
>station.
>This wasn't dial-tone, it was a DC pair that would drop a trouble
>notification if DC was interrupted, and I think it would reverse
>polarity
>to indicate alarm. If DC was interrupted, that would also turn off the
>boiler in the building.
>
>Today my home fire alarms are wireless and have cellular back to their
>main
>Comcast connection, and detect CO, smoke, and temperature. This would
>not
>meet insurance requirements for a commercial building, they still have
>all
>of the sensors wired, with cellular backup.
>
>I don't think you are considering what life-support-critical digital
>communications would really cost. Start with metal conduit and
>fire-resistant wiring throughout the structure. Provide redundant power
>for
>*every* fan-out box (we just had a 24-hour power interruption here due
>to
>storms). AT&T provides 4 hour power for "Lightspeed" tombstone boxes
>that
>fan out telephone, beyond that a truck has to drive out and plug in a
>generator, or you are out of luck if it's a wide-are outage like we
>just
>had. Wire areas in a redundant loop rather than a tree. Supervise every
>home so that interruptions are serviced automatically. Provide a 4-hour
>SLA.
>
>The phone company used to do what you are asking for. The high prices
>this
>required are the main reason that everyone has jumped off of using the
>legacy telco for telephony.

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  reply	other threads:[~2023-03-25 22:04 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 148+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
     [not found] <mailman.2651.1672779463.1281.starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
     [not found] ` <1672786712.106922180@apps.rackspace.com>
     [not found]   ` <F4CA66DA-516C-438A-8D8A-5F172E5DFA75@cable.comcast.com>
2023-01-09 15:26     ` [Rpm] [Starlink] Researchers Seeking Probe Volunteers in USA Dave Taht
2023-01-09 17:00       ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-01-09 17:04       ` [Rpm] [LibreQoS] " Jeremy Austin
2023-01-09 18:33         ` Dave Taht
2023-01-09 18:54       ` [Rpm] [EXTERNAL] " Livingood, Jason
2023-01-09 19:19         ` rjmcmahon
2023-01-09 19:56           ` [Rpm] [LibreQoS] " dan
2023-01-09 21:00             ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-13 10:02             ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 15:08               ` [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] [EXTERNAL] " Jeremy Austin
2023-03-13 15:50                 ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 16:06                   ` [Rpm] [Bloat] " Dave Taht
2023-03-13 16:19                     ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 16:12                   ` [Rpm] " dan
2023-03-13 16:36                     ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 17:26                       ` dan
2023-03-13 17:37                         ` Jeremy Austin
2023-03-13 18:34                           ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 18:14                         ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 18:42                           ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-13 18:51                             ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 19:32                               ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-13 20:00                                 ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 20:28                                   ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-14  4:27                                     ` [Rpm] On FiWi rjmcmahon
2023-03-14 11:10                                       ` [Rpm] [Starlink] " Mike Puchol
2023-03-14 16:54                                         ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-14 17:06                                           ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-14 17:11                                             ` [Rpm] [Bloat] " Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-14 17:35                                               ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-14 17:54                                                 ` [Rpm] [LibreQoS] " dan
2023-03-14 18:14                                                   ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-14 19:18                                                     ` dan
2023-03-14 19:30                                                       ` [Rpm] [Bloat] [LibreQoS] " Dave Taht
2023-03-14 20:06                                                         ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-14 19:30                                                       ` [Rpm] [LibreQoS] [Bloat] " rjmcmahon
2023-03-14 23:30                                                         ` [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] [Bloat] " Bruce Perens
2023-03-15  0:11                                                           ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-15  5:20                                                             ` Bruce Perens
2023-03-15 16:17                                                               ` Aaron Wood
2023-03-15 17:05                                                                 ` Bruce Perens
2023-03-15 17:44                                                                   ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-15 19:22                                                                   ` [Rpm] [Bloat] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] " David Lang
2023-03-15 17:32                                                               ` [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] [Bloat] " rjmcmahon
2023-03-15 17:42                                                                 ` dan
2023-03-15 19:33                                                                   ` [Rpm] [Bloat] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] " David Lang
2023-03-15 19:39                                                                     ` Dave Taht
2023-03-15 21:52                                                                       ` David Lang
2023-03-15 22:04                                                                         ` Dave Taht
2023-03-15 22:08                                                                           ` dan
2023-03-15 17:43                                                                 ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-15 17:49                                                                   ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-15 17:53                                                                     ` Dave Taht
2023-03-15 17:59                                                                       ` dan
2023-03-15 19:39                                                                       ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-17 16:38                                         ` [Rpm] [Starlink] " Dave Taht
2023-03-17 18:21                                           ` Mike Puchol
2023-03-17 19:01                                           ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-17 19:19                                             ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-17 20:37                                               ` Bruce Perens
2023-03-17 20:57                                                 ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-17 22:50                                                   ` Bruce Perens
2023-03-18 18:18                                                     ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-18 19:57                                                       ` [Rpm] [LibreQoS] " dan
2023-03-18 20:40                                                         ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-19 10:26                                                           ` [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] " Michael Richardson
2023-03-19 21:00                                                             ` [Rpm] On metrics rjmcmahon
2023-03-20  0:26                                                               ` dan
2023-03-20  3:03                                                                 ` [Rpm] [Starlink] " David Lang
2023-03-20 20:46                                                             ` [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] On FiWi Frantisek Borsik
2023-03-20 21:28                                                               ` dan
2023-03-20 21:38                                                                 ` Frantisek Borsik
2023-03-20 22:02                                                                   ` [Rpm] On FiWi power envelope rjmcmahon
2023-03-20 23:47                                                                     ` [Rpm] [Starlink] " Bruce Perens
2023-03-21  0:10                                                                 ` [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] On FiWi Brandon Butterworth
2023-03-21  5:21                                                                   ` Frantisek Borsik
2023-03-21 11:26                                                                     ` [Rpm] Annoyed at 5/1 Mbps Rich Brown
2023-03-21 12:29                                                                     ` [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] On FiWi Brandon Butterworth
2023-03-21 12:30                                                                   ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-21 17:42                                                                     ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-21 18:08                                                                       ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-21 18:51                                                                         ` Frantisek Borsik
2023-03-21 19:58                                                                           ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-21 20:06                                                                             ` [Rpm] [Bloat] " David Lang
2023-03-25 19:39                                                                             ` [Rpm] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat rjmcmahon
2023-03-25 20:09                                                                               ` [Rpm] [Starlink] " Bruce Perens
2023-03-25 20:47                                                                                 ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-25 20:15                                                                               ` [Rpm] [Bloat] " Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-25 20:43                                                                                 ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-25 21:08                                                                                   ` [Rpm] [Starlink] " Bruce Perens
2023-03-25 22:04                                                                                     ` Robert McMahon [this message]
2023-03-25 22:50                                                                                       ` dan
2023-03-25 23:21                                                                                         ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-25 23:35                                                                                           ` [Rpm] [Bloat] [Starlink] " David Lang
2023-03-26  0:04                                                                                             ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-26  0:07                                                                                               ` Nathan Owens
2023-03-26  0:50                                                                                                 ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-26  8:45                                                                                                 ` Livingood, Jason
2023-03-26 18:54                                                                                                   ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-26  0:28                                                                                               ` David Lang
2023-03-26  0:57                                                                                                 ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-25 22:57                                                                                       ` [Rpm] [Starlink] [Bloat] " Bruce Perens
2023-03-25 23:33                                                                                         ` [Rpm] [Bloat] [Starlink] " David Lang
2023-03-25 23:38                                                                                         ` [Rpm] [Starlink] [Bloat] " Robert McMahon
2023-03-25 23:20                                                                                       ` [Rpm] [Bloat] [Starlink] " David Lang
2023-03-26 18:29                                                                                         ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-26 10:34                                                                                   ` [Rpm] [Bloat] " Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-26 18:12                                                                                     ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-26 20:57                                                                                     ` David Lang
2023-03-25 20:27                                                                               ` [Rpm] " rjmcmahon
2023-03-17 23:15                                             ` [Rpm] [Bloat] [Starlink] On FiWi David Lang
2023-03-13 19:33                           ` [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] [EXTERNAL] Re: Researchers Seeking Probe Volunteers in USA dan
2023-03-13 19:52                             ` Jeremy Austin
2023-03-13 21:00                               ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 21:27                                 ` dan
2023-03-14  9:11                                   ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 20:45                             ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 21:02                               ` [Rpm] When do you drop? Always! Dave Taht
2023-03-13 16:04                 ` [Rpm] UnderBloat on fiber and wisps Dave Taht
2023-03-13 16:09                   ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-01-09 20:49         ` [Rpm] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Starlink] Researchers Seeking Probe Volunteers in USA Dave Taht
2023-01-09 19:13       ` [Rpm] " rjmcmahon
2023-01-09 19:47         ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-01-11 18:32           ` Rodney W. Grimes
2023-01-11 20:01             ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-01-11 21:46               ` Dick Roy
2023-01-12  8:22                 ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-01-12 18:02                   ` rjmcmahon
2023-01-12 21:34                     ` Dick Roy
2023-01-12 20:39                   ` Dick Roy
2023-01-13  7:33                     ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-01-13  8:26                       ` Dick Roy
2023-01-13  7:40                     ` rjmcmahon
2023-01-13  8:10                       ` Dick Roy
2023-01-15 23:09                         ` rjmcmahon
2023-01-11 20:09             ` rjmcmahon
2023-01-12  8:14               ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-01-12 17:49                 ` Robert McMahon
2023-01-12 21:57                   ` Dick Roy
2023-01-13  7:44                     ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-01-13  8:01                       ` Dick Roy
2023-01-09 20:20         ` Dave Taht
2023-01-09 20:46           ` rjmcmahon
2023-01-09 20:59             ` Dave Taht
2023-01-09 21:06               ` rjmcmahon
2023-01-09 21:18                 ` rjmcmahon
2023-01-09 21:02             ` Dick Roy
2023-01-10 17:36         ` David P. Reed

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