From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail.lang.hm (unknown [66.167.227.145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0B203CBC5; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 17:52:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dlang-mobile (unknown [10.2.2.69]) by mail.lang.hm (Postfix) with ESMTP id B56F717D4AF; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 14:52:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 14:52:41 -0700 (PDT) From: David Lang To: Dave Taht cc: David Lang , dan , Rpm , libreqos , Bruce Perens , Dave Taht via Starlink , bloat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <89c55d67-86f0-494d-a09e-c9aeebe46dc0@rjmcmahon.com> <70CBB03C-4394-4A93-BBB5-7449DC1AAF9C@gmx.de> <063359bf-5bf3-4688-852c-a7d81e6b80a3@rjmcmahon.com> <21f2252ff57e60dc52e7b9a6db8ba936@rjmcmahon.com> <8a04de1c-2d47-4226-a1ac-ea3d5e7b7253@rjmcmahon.com> <949886c0f65025a626887d09a818c233@rjmcmahon.com> <48q03o08-ro20-2p59-1644-sp73526024q3@ynat.uz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="228850167-707283853-1678917161=:4108" Subject: Re: [Rpm] [Bloat] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] On FiWi X-BeenThere: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 21:52:43 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --228850167-707283853-1678917161=:4108 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Wed, 15 Mar 2023, Dave Taht wrote: > On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 12:33 PM David Lang via Rpm > wrote: >> >> if you want another example of the failure, look at any conference center, they >> have a small number of APs with wide coverage. It works well when the place is >> empty and they walk around and test it, but when it fills up with users, the >> entire network collapses. >> >> Part of this is that wifi was really designed for sparse environments, so it's >> solution to "I didn't get my message through" is to talk slower (and louder if >> possible), which just creates more interference for other users and reduces the >> available airtime. >> >> I just finished the Scale conference in Pasadena, CA. We deployed over 100 APs >> for the conference, up to 7 in a room, on the floor (so that the attendees >> bodies attenuate the signal) at low power so that the channels could be re-used >> more readily. > > How did it go? You were deploying fq_codel on the wndr3800s there as > of a few years ago, and I remember you got rave reviews... (can you > repost the link to that old data/blog/podcast?) no good stats this year. still using the wndr3800s. Lots of people commenting on how well the network did, but we were a bit behind this year and didn't get good monitoring in place. No cake yet. I think this is what you mean https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXvGbEYeWp0 > Did you get any good stats? > > Run cake anywhere? >> >> in the cell phone world they discovered 'microcells' years ago, but with wifi >> too many people are still trying to cover the max area with the fewest possible >> number of radios. As Dan says, it just doesn't work. >> >> and on mesh radios, you need to not just use a different channel for your >> uplink, you need a different band to avoid desense on the connection to your >> users. And that uplink is going to have the same hidden transmitter and airtime >> problems competing with the other nodes also doing the uplink that it's >> scalability is very limited (even with directional antennas). Wire/fiber for the >> uplink is much better. >> >> David Lang >> >> >> >> On Wed, 15 Mar >> 2023, dan via Bloat wrote: >> >>> Trying to do all of what is currently wanted with 1 AP in a house is a huge >>> part of the current problems with WiFi networks. MOAR power to try to >>> overcome attenuation and reflections from walls so more power bleeds into >>> the next home/suite/apartment etc. >>> >>> In the MSP space it's been rapidly moving to an AP per room with output >>> turned down to minimum. Doing this we can reused 5Ghz channels 50ft away >>> (through 2 walls etc...) without interference. >>> >>> One issue with the RRH model is that to accomplish this 'light bulb' model, >>> ie you put a light bulb in the room you want light, is that it requires >>> infrastructure cabling. 1 RRH AP in a house is already a failure today and >>> accounts for most access complaints. >>> >>> Mesh radios have provided a bit of a gap fill, getting the access SSID >>> closer to the device and backhauling on a separate channel with better (and >>> likely fixed position ) antennas. >>> >>> regardless of my opinion on the full on failure of moving firewall off prem >>> and the associated security risks and liabilities, single AP in a home is >>> already a proven failure that has given rise to the mesh systems that are >>> top sellers and top performers today. >>> >>> IMO, there was a scheme that gained a moment of fame and then died out of >>> powerline networking and an AP per room off that powerline network. I have >>> some of these deployed with mikrotik PLA adapters and the model works >>> fantastically, but the powerline networking has evolved slowly so I'm >>> seeing ~200Mbps practical speeds, and the mikrotik units have 802.11n >>> radios in them so also a bit of a struggle for modern speeds. This model, >>> with some development to get ~2.5Gbps practical speeds, and WiFi6 or WiFi7 >>> per room at very low output power, is a very practical and deployable by >>> consumers setup. >>> >>> WiFi7 also solves some pieces of this with AP coordination and >>> co-transmission, sort of like a MUMIMO with multiple APs, and that's in >>> early devices already (TPLINK just launched an AP). >>> >>> IMO, too many hurdles for RRH models from massive amounts of unfrastructure >>> to build, homes and appartment buildings that need re-wired, security and >>> liability concerns of homes and business not being firewall isolated by >>> stakeholders of those networks. >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 11:32 AM rjmcmahon wrote: >>> >>>> The 6G is a contiguous 1200MhZ. It has low power indoor (LPI) and very >>>> low power (VLP) modes. The pluggable transceiver could be color coded to >>>> a chanspec, then the four color map problem can be used by installers >>>> per those chanspecs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_color_theorem >>>> >>>> There is no CTS with microwave "interference" The high-speed PHY rates >>>> combined with low-density AP/STA ratios, ideally 1/1, decrease the >>>> probability of time signal superpositions. The goal with wireless isn't >>>> high densities but to unleash humans. A bunch of humans stuck in a dog >>>> park isn't really being unleashed. It's the ability to move from block >>>> to block so-to-speak. FiWi is cheaper than sidewalks, sanitation >>>> systems, etc. >>>> >>>> The goal now is very low latency. Higher phy rates can achieve that and >>>> leave the medium free the vast most of the time and shut down the RRH >>>> too. Engineering extra capacity by orders of magnitude is better than >>>> AQM. This has been the case in data centers for decades. Congestion? Add >>>> a zero (or multiple by 10) >>>> >>>> Note: None of this is done. This is a 5-10 year project with zero >>>> engineering resources assigned. >>>> >>>> Bob >>>>> On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 5:11 PM Robert McMahon >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> the AP needs to blast a CTS so every other possible conversation has >>>>>> to halt. >>>>> >>>>> The wireless network is not a bus. This still ignores the hidden >>>>> transmitter problem because there is a similar network in the next >>>>> room. >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> Bloat mailing list >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >> _______________________________________________ >> Rpm mailing list >> Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm > > > > --228850167-707283853-1678917161=:4108--