Re: [Starlink] It's still the starlink latency...

[Ben Greear <greearb@candelatech.com>]

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I think that engineers telling other engineers (military) that something isn't
sufficient is making a lot of assumptions that should not be made.

And if you want to propose some solution, then define the metrics of that solution.  First,
what is max latency/jitter/whatever that the application can handle and still be useful?
Why exactly is your ham thing failing, and what latency/jitter would resolve it.  And/or, what mitigation
in your software/procedures would solve it.

I know that Dave & crew have made some improvements to the wifi stack, but it is far from
solved even today.  Maybe effort is better done on wifi where developers that are not @spacex
can actually make changes and test results.

Thanks,
Ben


On 9/26/22 1:04 PM, Bruce Perens via Starlink wrote:
> Please help to explain. Here's a draft to start with:
>
> *Starlink Performance Not Sufficient for Military Applications, Say Scientists*
>
> The problem is not availability: Starlink works where nothing but another satellite network would. It's not bandwidth, although others have questions about 
> sustaining bandwidth as the customer base grows. It's /latency/ and /jitter. A/s load increases, latency, the time it takes for a packet to get through, 
> increases more than it should. The scientists who have fought /bufferbloat, /a major cause of latency on the internet, know why. SpaceX needs to upgrade their 
> system to use the scientist's Open Source modifications to Linux to fight bufferbloat, and thus reduce latency. This is mostly just using a newer version, but 
> there are some tunable parameters. Jitter is a /change/ in the speed of getting a packet through the network during a connection, which is inevitable in 
> satellite networks, but will be improved by making use of the bufferbloat-fighting software, and probably with the addition of more satellites.
>
> /We've done all of the work, SpaceX just needs to adopt it by upgrading their software, /said scientist Dave Taht. Jim Gettys, Taht's collaborator and creator 
> of the X Window System, chimed in: <fill in here please>
> Open Source luminary Bruce Perens said: /sometimes Starlink's latency and jitter make it inadequate to remote-control my ham radio station. But the military 
> is experimenting with remote-control of vehicles on the battlefield and other applications that can be demonstrated, but won't happen at *scale* without 
> adoption of bufferbloat-fighting strategies./
>
> On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 12:59 PM Eugene Chang <eugene.chang@alum.mit.edu <mailto:eugene.chang@alum.mit.edu>> wrote:
>
>     The key issue is most people don’t understand why latency matters. They don’t see it or feel it’s impact.
>
>     First, we have to help people see the symptoms of latency and how it impacts something they care about.
>     - gamers care but most people may think it is frivolous.
>     - musicians care but that is mostly for a hobby.
>     - business should care because of productivity but they don’t know how to “see” the impact.
>
>     Second, there needs to be a “OMG, I have been seeing the action of latency all this time and never knew it! I was being shafted.” Once you have this
>     awakening, you can get all the press you want for free.
>
>     Most of the time when business apps are developed, “we” hide the impact of poor performance (aka latency) or they hide from the discussion because the
>     developers don’t have a way to fix the latency. Maybe businesses don’t care because any employees affected are just considered poor performers. (In bad
>     economic times, the poor performers are just laid off.) For employees, if they happen to be at a location with bad latency, they don’t know that latency
>     is hurting them. Unfair but most people don’t know the issue is latency.
>
>     Talking and explaining why latency is bad is not as effective as showing why latency is bad. Showing has to be with something that has a person impact.
>
>     Gene
>     -----------------------------------
>     Eugene Chang
>     eugene.chang@alum.mit.edu <mailto:eugene.chang@alum.mit.edu>
>     +1-781-799-0233(in Honolulu)
>
>
>
>
>
>>     On Sep 26, 2022, at 6:32 AM, Bruce Perens via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>> wrote:
>>
>>     If you want to get attention, you can get it for free. I can place articles with various press if there is something interesting to say. Did this all
>>     through the evangelism of Open Source. All we need to do is write, sign, and publish a statement. What they actually write is less relevant if they
>>     publish a link to our statement.
>>
>>     Right now I am concerned that the Starlink latency and jitter is going to be a problem even for remote controlling my ham station. The US Military is
>>     interested in doing much more, which they have demonstrated, but I don't see happening /at scale /without some technical work on the network. Being able
>>     to say this isn't ready for the government's application would be an attention-getter.
>>
>>         Thanks
>>
>>         Bruce
>>
>>     On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 9:21 AM Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>> wrote:
>>
>>         These days, if you want attention, you gotta buy it. A 50k half page
>>         ad in the wapo or NYT riffing off of It's the latency, Stupid!",
>>         signed by the kinds of luminaries we got for the fcc wifi fight, would
>>         go a long way towards shifting the tide.
>>
>>         On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 8:29 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com <mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>         >
>>         > On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 8:20 AM Livingood, Jason
>>         > <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com <mailto:Jason_Livingood@comcast.com>> wrote:
>>         > >
>>         > > The awareness & understanding of latency & impact on QoE is nearly unknown among reporters. IMO maybe there should be some kind of background
>>         briefings for reporters - maybe like a simple YouTube video explainer that is short & high level & visual? Otherwise reporters will just continue to
>>         focus on what they know...
>>         >
>>         > That's a great idea. I have visions of crashing the washington
>>         > correspondents dinner, but perhaps
>>         > there is some set of gatherings journalists regularly attend?
>>         >
>>         > >
>>         > > On 9/21/22, 14:35, "Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht via Starlink" <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>         <mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>> wrote:
>>         > >
>>         > >     I still find it remarkable that reporters are still missing the
>>         > >     meaning of the huge latencies for starlink, under load.
>>         > >
>>         > >
>>         >
>>         >
>>         > --
>>         > FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/
>>         <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__blog.cerowrt.org_post_state-5Fof-5Ffq-5Fcodel_&d=DwMFaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=HYKqseB9xg-u2kz3egvegqfgyXnEBhQotXfR3iCfdgM&m=blDX6_rxt44xEoPiFsiJL_Lzz5vd5qQX5frndqg1CgQ&s=2IZ5wDH8NR59vMB84GYAMU19Drz7WqKmMbEK0HO4tQI&e=>
>>         > Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>>
>>
>>
>>         -- 
>>         FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/
>>         <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__blog.cerowrt.org_post_state-5Fof-5Ffq-5Fcodel_&d=DwMFaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=HYKqseB9xg-u2kz3egvegqfgyXnEBhQotXfR3iCfdgM&m=blDX6_rxt44xEoPiFsiJL_Lzz5vd5qQX5frndqg1CgQ&s=2IZ5wDH8NR59vMB84GYAMU19Drz7WqKmMbEK0HO4tQI&e=>
>>         Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>>         _______________________________________________
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>>         https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
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>>
>>
>>
>>     -- 
>>     Bruce Perens K6BP
>>     _______________________________________________
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>>     https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>     <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.bufferbloat.net_listinfo_starlink&d=DwMFaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=HYKqseB9xg-u2kz3egvegqfgyXnEBhQotXfR3iCfdgM&m=blDX6_rxt44xEoPiFsiJL_Lzz5vd5qQX5frndqg1CgQ&s=BAj7jaHw1fOGKbH3FA_Oal05HQywpVkQpzi52zRKBwE&e=>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Bruce Perens K6BP
>
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-- 
Ben Greear <greearb@candelatech.com>
Candela Technologies Inc  http://www.candelatech.com


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