I think that engineers telling other engineers (military) that something isn't sufficient is making a lot of assumptions that should not be made. And if you want to propose some solution, then define the metrics of that solution. First, what is max latency/jitter/whatever that the application can handle and still be useful? Why exactly is your ham thing failing, and what latency/jitter would resolve it. And/or, what mitigation in your software/procedures would solve it. I know that Dave & crew have made some improvements to the wifi stack, but it is far from solved even today. Maybe effort is better done on wifi where developers that are not @spacex can actually make changes and test results. Thanks, Ben On 9/26/22 1:04 PM, Bruce Perens via Starlink wrote: > Please help to explain. Here's a draft to start with: > > *Starlink Performance Not Sufficient for Military Applications, Say Scientists* > > The problem is not availability: Starlink works where nothing but another satellite network would. It's not bandwidth, although others have questions about > sustaining bandwidth as the customer base grows. It's /latency/ and /jitter. A/s load increases, latency, the time it takes for a packet to get through, > increases more than it should. The scientists who have fought /bufferbloat, /a major cause of latency on the internet, know why. SpaceX needs to upgrade their > system to use the scientist's Open Source modifications to Linux to fight bufferbloat, and thus reduce latency. This is mostly just using a newer version, but > there are some tunable parameters. Jitter is a /change/ in the speed of getting a packet through the network during a connection, which is inevitable in > satellite networks, but will be improved by making use of the bufferbloat-fighting software, and probably with the addition of more satellites. > > /We've done all of the work, SpaceX just needs to adopt it by upgrading their software, /said scientist Dave Taht. Jim Gettys, Taht's collaborator and creator > of the X Window System, chimed in: > Open Source luminary Bruce Perens said: /sometimes Starlink's latency and jitter make it inadequate to remote-control my ham radio station. But the military > is experimenting with remote-control of vehicles on the battlefield and other applications that can be demonstrated, but won't happen at *scale* without > adoption of bufferbloat-fighting strategies./ > > On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 12:59 PM Eugene Chang > wrote: > > The key issue is most people don’t understand why latency matters. They don’t see it or feel it’s impact. > > First, we have to help people see the symptoms of latency and how it impacts something they care about. > - gamers care but most people may think it is frivolous. > - musicians care but that is mostly for a hobby. > - business should care because of productivity but they don’t know how to “see” the impact. > > Second, there needs to be a “OMG, I have been seeing the action of latency all this time and never knew it! I was being shafted.” Once you have this > awakening, you can get all the press you want for free. > > Most of the time when business apps are developed, “we” hide the impact of poor performance (aka latency) or they hide from the discussion because the > developers don’t have a way to fix the latency. Maybe businesses don’t care because any employees affected are just considered poor performers. (In bad > economic times, the poor performers are just laid off.) For employees, if they happen to be at a location with bad latency, they don’t know that latency > is hurting them. Unfair but most people don’t know the issue is latency. > > Talking and explaining why latency is bad is not as effective as showing why latency is bad. Showing has to be with something that has a person impact. > > Gene > ----------------------------------- > Eugene Chang > eugene.chang@alum.mit.edu > +1-781-799-0233(in Honolulu) > > > > > >> On Sep 26, 2022, at 6:32 AM, Bruce Perens via Starlink > wrote: >> >> If you want to get attention, you can get it for free. I can place articles with various press if there is something interesting to say. Did this all >> through the evangelism of Open Source. All we need to do is write, sign, and publish a statement. What they actually write is less relevant if they >> publish a link to our statement. >> >> Right now I am concerned that the Starlink latency and jitter is going to be a problem even for remote controlling my ham station. The US Military is >> interested in doing much more, which they have demonstrated, but I don't see happening /at scale /without some technical work on the network. Being able >> to say this isn't ready for the government's application would be an attention-getter. >> >> Thanks >> >> Bruce >> >> On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 9:21 AM Dave Taht via Starlink > wrote: >> >> These days, if you want attention, you gotta buy it. A 50k half page >> ad in the wapo or NYT riffing off of It's the latency, Stupid!", >> signed by the kinds of luminaries we got for the fcc wifi fight, would >> go a long way towards shifting the tide. >> >> On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 8:29 AM Dave Taht > wrote: >> > >> > On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 8:20 AM Livingood, Jason >> > > wrote: >> > > >> > > The awareness & understanding of latency & impact on QoE is nearly unknown among reporters. IMO maybe there should be some kind of background >> briefings for reporters - maybe like a simple YouTube video explainer that is short & high level & visual? Otherwise reporters will just continue to >> focus on what they know... >> > >> > That's a great idea. I have visions of crashing the washington >> > correspondents dinner, but perhaps >> > there is some set of gatherings journalists regularly attend? >> > >> > > >> > > On 9/21/22, 14:35, "Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht via Starlink" > on behalf of starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > wrote: >> > > >> > > I still find it remarkable that reporters are still missing the >> > > meaning of the huge latencies for starlink, under load. >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/ >> >> > Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >> >> >> >> -- >> FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/ >> >> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Bruce Perens K6BP >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >> > > > > -- > Bruce Perens K6BP > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink -- Ben Greear Candela Technologies Inc http://www.candelatech.com