From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from vsmx001.dclux.xion.oxcs.net (vsmx001.dclux.xion.oxcs.net [185.74.65.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6817B3B2A4 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2022 03:47:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from proxy-1.proxy.oxio.ns.xion.oxcs.net (proxy-1.proxy.oxio.ns.xion.oxcs.net [31.4.201.96]) by mx-out.dclux.xion.oxcs.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 24F958C03E2; Tue, 8 Feb 2022 08:47:50 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=dclux.xion.oxcs.net; s=mail1; t=1644310073; bh=fg4vA2B9At+aTuAFLkAd6BOZPTglMAaN2mO0urEGd+g=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=kHoXKOT7chmhsQEUsDOFj8oH5rTuo0ogPcsZOtAX0IiVFPmERNuWHF6I1WoLUPsDk fJ1tGDkqq2Bvo+CEsvcQwgNQmeldcdrdqdb8R9x8wowZzMfnOMsXrbGaGGl5Yei80z CFLhYl4YkDE4ndv6fswZwb3SoOL4heNhJd7KI/hRhcRyhzSVQd6+cJoOZlamsbPdtz bp6rchOTsF0Lwwnr2sQWm8RedJl71luYS8gux4cCxm6+iD1z5F9X7OJXu4rWHbIRYn Uu3N+kMmlRW3R/iVWptx/e+s9rstXmiMFbh2juZ2jlwUp+IyEl2uKNF4snA9CNZBe2 aQeTTv6aQz8DQ== Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 09:47:41 +0100 From: Mike Puchol To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net, Ulrich Speidel Message-ID: <0136de5b-a198-4ebf-8a12-baa2424c431d@Spark> In-Reply-To: <78be6869-375c-02a8-498b-7446287ab97d@cs.auckland.ac.nz> References: <0d78acc3-1101-c7d2-c7a6-53158b8c1045@vdr.net> <44b2b090-457b-eb59-a75a-a0bbb0307073@candelatech.com> <431oq9ns-qnpn-n56r-6np6-374rsq317q@ynat.uz> <8ecdc077-1751-4302-a013-fa35b2291a87@Spark> <380541e2-c5fa-b3ff-b28c-8d3d993be416@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <5d9dab2c-3c20-4d18-aa1d-cc72bf250843@Spark> <736pq4q3-q21n-p6rn-9391-o56qn77npn2@ynat.uz> <9383f6d3-b6e3-de25-fee0-4416bd05c030@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <7ffdb646-0d02-c1fa-6857-576c2681490c@falco.ca> <2e2c67c8-839b-e1af-5937-78dab715d482@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <8b7fd197-777d-e963-628d-4cdff7c04380@sokolov.eu.org> <78be6869-375c-02a8-498b-7446287ab97d@cs.auckland.ac.nz> X-Readdle-Message-ID: 0136de5b-a198-4ebf-8a12-baa2424c431d@Spark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="62022e34_333ab105_1d16" X-VadeSecure-Status: LEGIT X-VADE-STATUS: LEGIT Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink for Tonga? X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2022 08:47:54 -0000 --62022e34_333ab105_1d16 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Thank you for the great detail on the situation=21 On link budgets, we are talking about a delta in slant range at minimum e= levation of 15=C2=B0 of =7E900 km, compared to 25=C2=B0. SpaceX already s= tated that they would operate gateways above 60=C2=B0 latitude at elevati= ons as low as 5=C2=B0, so they have plenty spare in terms of gateway to s= atellite. The biggest rain fade impact would be on the service links, as = the UT cannot increase power that much, no matter how much the satellite = increases its side. Still, the biggest impact on =46iji and Tonga is the = GSO protection, which takes out 36=C2=B0 of usable sky, all the way from = East to West. As for banning Dishy, the difference with satellite TV is that you can de= tect the uplink at 14-14.5 GHz and home in on =E2=80=9Cviolators=E2=80=9D= , you can=E2=80=99t just hide it under some tarp ;-) Best, Mike On =46eb 8, 2022, 09:22 +0100, Ulrich Speidel , wrote: > =46iji's unwritten government policy for a long term has been that the = Internet exists as an income source for the government. > When I was at the University of the South Pacific (USP) in Suva on a sh= ort secondment in 2001, you could pick a fresh bunch of tropical flowers = for each short e-mail from overseas that arrived. This was just a couple = of kilometres from the landing station of the very much operational South= ern Cross cable, which had taken over as the main redundant US-NZ-Austral= ia connection, with bandwidth to boot. I was told that USP, as a transnat= ional organisation, had requested permission to connect, and was refused.= They had access to a transponder on a Japanese satellite at the time to = beam analog video of classes to their =22satellite=22 campuses around the= Pacific, and they weren't allowed to use that for Internet either. > It's not changed all that much since. I'm told that there's a wall in t= he cable landing station, and every bit that crosses the wall has a tax s= lapped onto it. > Other countries have similar sensitivities, sometimes because they want= to protect a monopoly telco, sometimes because local society doesn't wan= t real Internet (many places are very much church-driven, and I suspect s= ome pastors fear that they might lose the narrative, or people have heard= about all the horrible things on the Internet and just don't want it in = their village). Sometimes it's because their current satellite provider h= as them in a stranglehold - they love long-term contracts for little serv= ice at exorbitant fees, and some small footnote in the contract says that= this special price is only available to them if the island nation shall = not buy from anyone else during that period. Typical satellite contracts = in the Pacific run for 5 years minimum. Yes that sounds as crook as it is= . > Note that there are in principle two issues with a LEO provider accessi= ng a country: Providing service there and running gateways there. To prev= ent Starlink from offering service once they're able to route between sat= ellite, you'd have to ban dishys, and if you want to know how well that w= orks, ask the Iranians for their experience when they wanted to ban satel= lite TV. Running a gateway is another matter, of course. > There's always hope that the =46ijian government will eventually unders= tand that the Internet will make it richer if it doesn't try to take a cu= t, and that more of it is better for them. But they'd like a bit more Int= ernet on the outlying islands as is, and maybe Elon can sell the idea to = them=3F > On 8/02/2022 8:49 pm, Daniel AJ Sokolov wrote: > > On 2022-02-08 at 00:30, Ulrich Speidel wrote: > > > They're not the only place in the Pacific to have these sorts of > > > problems, so seeing Starlink show any interest at all is a good thi= ng. > > > They might want to start with providing service to all of =46iji. > > > > Maybe, but my feeling is the local authorities don't want them in the= ir > > market=3F > > > > What are the chances that the 6 month emergency license =46idschi has= > > granted to help Tonga will be turned into a normal license that allow= s > > =46idschi residents to use Starlink=3F > > > > Cheers > > Daniel > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F > > Starlink mailing list > > Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > -- > **************************************************************** > Dr. Ulrich Speidel > > School of Computer Science > > Room 303S.594 (City Campus) > Ph: (+64-9)-373-7599 ext. 85282 > > The University of Auckland > ulrich=40cs.auckland.ac.nz > http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/=7Eulrich/ > **************************************************************** > > > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F > Starlink mailing list > Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink --62022e34_333ab105_1d16 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
Thank you for the great detail on the situation=21<= br />
On link budgets, we are talking about a delta in slant range at minimum e= levation of 15=C2=B0 of =7E900 km, compared to 25=C2=B0. SpaceX already s= tated that they would operate gateways above 60=C2=B0 latitude at elevati= ons as low as 5=C2=B0, so they have plenty spare in terms of gateway to s= atellite. The biggest rain fade impact would be on the service links, as = the UT cannot increase power that much, no matter how much the satellite = increases its side. Still, the biggest impact on =46iji and Tonga is the = GSO protection, which takes out 36=C2=B0 of usable sky, all the way from = East to West.

As for banning Dishy, the difference with satellite TV is that you can de= tect the uplink at 14-14.5 GHz and home in on =E2=80=9Cviolators=E2=80=9D= , you can=E2=80=99t just hide it under some tarp ;-)

Best,

Mike
On =46eb 8, 2022, 09:22 +0100, Ulri= ch Speidel <ulrich=40cs.auckland.ac.nz>, wrote:

=46iji's unwritten government policy for a long term has been that the= Internet exists as an income source for the government.

When I was at the University of the South Pacific (USP) in Suva on a s= hort secondment in 2001, you could pick a fresh bunch of tropical flowers= for each short e-mail from overseas that arrived. This was just a couple= of kilometres from the landing station of the very much operational Sout= hern Cross cable, which had taken over as the main redundant US-NZ-Austra= lia connection, with bandwidth to boot. I was told that USP, as a transna= tional organisation, had requested permission to connect, and was refused= . They had access to a transponder on a Japanese satellite at the time to= beam analog video of classes to their =22satellite=22 campuses around th= e Pacific, and they weren't allowed to use that for Internet either.

It's not changed all that much since. I'm told that there's a wall in = the cable landing station, and every bit that crosses the wall has a tax = slapped onto it.

Other countries have similar sensitivities, sometimes because they wan= t to protect a monopoly telco, sometimes because local society doesn't wa= nt real Internet (many places are very much church-driven, and I suspect = some pastors fear that they might lose the narrative, or people have hear= d about all the horrible things on the Internet and just don't want it in= their village). Sometimes it's because their current satellite provider = has them in a stranglehold - they love long-term contracts for little ser= vice at exorbitant fees, and some small footnote in the contract says tha= t this special price is only available to them if the island nation shall= not buy from anyone else during that period. Typical satellite contracts= in the Pacific run for 5 years minimum. Yes that sounds as crook as it i= s.

Note that there are in principle two issues with a LEO provider access= ing a country: Providing service there and running gateways there. To pre= vent Starlink from offering service once they're able to route between sa= tellite, you'd have to ban dishys, and if you want to know how well that = works, ask the Iranians for their experience when they wanted to ban sate= llite TV. Running a gateway is another matter, of course.

There's always hope that the =46ijian government will eventually under= stand that the Internet will make it richer if it doesn't try to take a c= ut, and that more of it is better for them. But they'd like a bit more In= ternet on the outlying islands as is, and maybe Elon can sell the idea to= them=3F

On 8/02/2022 8:49 pm, Daniel AJ Sokolo= v wrote:
On 2022-02-08 at 00:30, Ulrich Speidel wrote:=
> They're not the only place in the Pacific to have these sorts of
> problems, so seeing Starlink show any interest at all is a good thin= g.
> They might want to start with providing service to all of =46iji.
Maybe, but my feeling is the local authorities don't want them in their market=3F

What are the chances that the 6 month emergency license =46idschi has
granted to help Tonga will be turned into a normal license that allows =46idschi residents to use Starlink=3F

Cheers
Daniel
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
Starlink mailing list
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-- =20
****************************************************************
Dr. Ulrich Speidel

School of Computer Science

Room 303S.594 (City Campus)
Ph: (+64-9)-373-7599 ext. 85282

The University of Auckland
ulrich=40cs.auckland.ac.nz =20
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/=7Eulrich/
****************************************************************
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
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