From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from vsmx001.dclux.xion.oxcs.net (vsmx001.dclux.xion.oxcs.net [185.74.65.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 443CC3B2A4 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2022 02:00:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from proxy-2.proxy.oxio.ns.xion.oxcs.net (proxy-2.proxy.oxio.ns.xion.oxcs.net [197.237.102.6]) by mx-out.dclux.xion.oxcs.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 3D8A58C0390; Fri, 4 Mar 2022 07:00:12 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=dclux.xion.oxcs.net; s=mail1; t=1646377218; bh=Pm1V37FRn4pyFV9xHycYU/UrWbs6nI6PEy3aoUr+dho=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=AfSJ3fEsWYYIgO5rNy2ZXGigs6vebzkNiQXaZUPmi7ADzGCackQiTiFDFpxbOkJpJ 5d9B8tuEmWqP0yT9rm/8TkLQ9keQTfcyMf1dZHJ32hfXqhWkXz1O9cjfjwflWxwml7 iC9QcdMHYSiKfIQw+9JydRT9WULZscALlW0lzScnLBhRHdeEx6P/eV4Z4lkXEkzz6Y mVX9Djc/LKzeyyxSkQyhqDvw+FZCj4/Am62IbxYutFyno0+b1ldQ6/sQDlEZ0Nr9d1 8Kr5s4p94mpyXWgLspimWTKw5YavV9Dp6rjvq9GEurQLOEMbCaYkkFt+xzn7odlbjD gMdHOY4tFfxpQ== Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 10:00:03 +0300 From: Mike Puchol To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net, Ulrich Speidel Message-ID: <03e73122-63c3-497b-82c6-b7b7f23b627a@Spark> In-Reply-To: <2b2f1808-8cf7-6eae-3157-a5fc554a2424@auckland.ac.nz> References: <1646351242.121623495@apps.rackspace.com> <2b2f1808-8cf7-6eae-3157-a5fc554a2424@auckland.ac.nz> X-Readdle-Message-ID: 03e73122-63c3-497b-82c6-b7b7f23b627a@Spark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="6221b8f8_540a471c_3bd" X-VadeSecure-Status: LEGIT X-VADE-STATUS: LEGIT Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2022 07:00:19 -0000 --6221b8f8_540a471c_3bd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline IMHO unless we are addressing actual weapons, we are in murky waters. Tak= e toilet paper. It is an element of Molotov cocktails, does it become cla= ssified as a weapon=3F Or in fact, anything that can aid one of the sides= in their fight, including food and medical supplies. Our WISP in Kenya gets asked, very often, =E2=80=9Cwhy do you provide int= ernet in slums, don=E2=80=99t they need like, food, clean water, healtcar= e, before internet=3F=E2=80=9D. The answer to that is two-pronged. =46irst, we are good at =E2=80=9Cdoing= internet=E2=80=9D, in a way cost-effective enough that our business actu= ally employs hundreds of Kenyans, many from these slums, and provides unl= imited broadband internet to underprivileged communities at affordable pr= ices. We don=E2=80=99t know how to =E2=80=9Cdo=22 clean water or healthca= re, so we try to make an impact with what we know. Secondly, the Human Rights Council of the UN produced, in 2011, a report,= which stated: =22The Special Rapporteur underscores the unique and transformative natur= e of the Internet not only to enable individuals to exercise their right = to freedom of opinion and expression, but also a range of other human rig= hts, and to promote the progress of society as a whole=E2=80=9D. Many news outlets picked on this to conclude =E2=80=9CThe UN declares int= ernet a basic human right=E2=80=9D - which is not what the report says (f= ull text here:=C2=A0https://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/= 17session/A.HRC.17.27=5Fen.pdf). What it does say is it can enable the ri= ght to freedom of opinion and expression, something which Russia is tryin= g to shut down, both in Ukraine and in Russia itself, applying sanctions = to those who disseminate =E2=80=9Cnon-official=E2=80=9D information. Thus, my personal view is that a few Starlink terminals that can restore = connectivity to areas where it has been limited, have benefits that outwe= igh the possibility that they get used for military comms or such. Best, Mike On Mar 4, 2022, 08:06 +0300, Ulrich Speidel ,= wrote: > Kia ora David=21 I'd personally grieve if anyone came to harm as a resu= lt of any insight I'd shared here, and I don't care whether that would be= a Russian soldier or a Ukrainian freedom fighter, or heaven forbid a civ= ilian not involved in the hostilities. I've already had an indirect appro= ach from a party in the conflict this week to provide resources for cyber= -warriors, and have politely declined and informed our university's chief= information security officer, whose response to me was that he would hav= e been a lot less polite than me. > A significant part of the tensions you currently see explode in Ukraine= have festered for decades and are rooted in Russia's gas exports to West= ern Europe. That gas has flowed for many decades, a big part of it throug= h the territory of today's Ukraine. The pipelines go back to Soviet days = when Ukraine was part of the USSR. Germany, as Russia's main gas customer= , always found their Russian business partners to be reliable and faithfu= l to contracts signed (my father was a commercial lawyer in the city of E= ssen, and dealt a lot with Ruhrgas there, then Germany's biggest gas comp= any and the USSR's / Russia's biggest customer in Germany, and knows the = former CEO). When the USSR fell apart, Russia suddenly found itself with = another transit country along its pipeline. Ukraine insisted on being sup= plied at rates they would nominate. Russia was faced with a choice betwee= n supplying Ukraine for cheap or losing its ability to supply Western Eur= ope. That's why they wanted the Nord Stream 2 pipeline so badly. After ye= ars of multi-party negotiations with the US trying to talk Germany out of= saying yes to the pipeline, the Germans were left with the impression th= at US insistence was in no small parts motivated by them wanting to sell = US-produced LPG to Europe. > None of that is an excuse for a brutal invasion, of course, but maybe a= reminder that life is sometimes a bit more complex than is suitable for = a simple good-bad scheme. > I laud Starlink and other initiatives for adding options to preserve co= nnectivity for people in Ukraine, however small these options will be in = scale, and hope that the good that will come out of the ability to suppor= t innocent civilians and shine light into dark corners will outweigh any = use for the pursuit of hostilities and any risks to those using it. > On 4/03/2022 12:47 pm, David P. Reed wrote: > > I'm really appreciating all the analysis of Starlink in Ukraine conte= xt here. > > > > However, it's a lot distressing that the focus is on =22military oper= ations=22 context. > > It seems like most of the commentators want to be armchair military c= ommanders in a situation where the last thing any Ukrainian needs is more= attacks and bloodshed (no matter how precision-guided). > > > > Are we helping Elon Musk become an international arms dealer=3F Is th= at what he wants=3F > > > > So how is Starlink helping get aid to the vast majority (of any polit= ical persuasion) who just want to survive and don't really want to incine= rate ANYONE with a Molotov cocktail=3F > > > > Surely there are applications of Starlink and Internet to peace other= than the US's favorite mantra (if you remember) =22Kill for Peace, Kill,= Kill, Kill for Peace=22 > > > > This also strikes me about the ideas aimed at punishing Russia by dis= connecting if from the Internet at the borders and denying the people liv= ing there from accessing PayPal, etc. > > > > > > On Thursday, March 3, 2022 5:01pm, starlink-request=40lists.bufferblo= at.net said: > > > > > Send Starlink mailing list submissions to > > > starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > > > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > > starlink-request=40lists.bufferbloat.net > > > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > > starlink-owner=40lists.bufferbloat.net > > > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific= > > > than =22Re: Contents of Starlink digest...=22 > > > > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > > > 1. Re: recent starlink rrul test result (tom=40evslin.com) > > > 2. Re: recent starlink rrul test result (David Lang) > > > 3. Re: recent starlink rrul test result (David Lang) > > > 4. Re: spacex & ukraine (Larry Press) > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------= --- > > > > > > Message: 1 > > > Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 12:42:54 -0500 > > > =46rom: > > > To: =22'Nathan Owens'=22 , =22'David Lang'=22 > > > > > > Cc: > > > Subject: Re: =5BStarlink=5D recent starlink rrul test result > > > Message-ID: <23e201d82f26=241d938720=2458ba9560=24=40evslin.com> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D=22utf-8=22 > > > > > > I=E2=80=99ve also stayed with my Starlink connection for teleconfer= encing altho we > > > now have fiber available. My connection is not usually the worst on= the call but > > > not perfect either. If I were a job seeker or being paid to present= AND I had a > > > choice, I wouldn=E2=80=99t use Starlink when critical > > > > > > > > > > > > =46rom: Starlink On Beha= lf Of Nathan > > > Owens > > > Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 12:16 PM > > > To: David Lang > > > Cc: starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > > > Subject: Re: =5BStarlink=5D recent starlink rrul test result > > > > > > > > > > > > Same here, Google Meet / Zoom / Teams / =46aceTime are great. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dave, can you post the commands to run those flent measurements=3F = I also finally > > > recreated that irtt-based scatterplot, attached. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:15 AM David Lang > > > wrote: > > > > > > That said, I've been using starlink for work zoom calls for a while= with no > > > significant issues (nothing I can pin on my side vs the other parti= cipants) > > > > > > David Lang > > > > > > On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote: > > > > > > > wildly variable bandwidth, adjusted at 15 sec intervals, induced > > > > latencies of 400ms, really terrible upload throughput relative to= > > > > down. > > > > > > > > H/T David Lang for this data. > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:31 AM Livingood, Jason > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > >> > > > >> When folks experience sub-par video conferencing over Starlink, = it'd be > > > great to see working latency stats at that time - such as via the e= asy test at > > > https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat. > > > >> > > > >> On 2/23/22, 09:38, =22Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht=22 > > > > > on behalf of > > > dave.taht=40gmail.com > wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/=5F=5Fhttps://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/= starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html=5F=5F;=21=21CQl3mcHX2A=21Tj= ZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGd=46rivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3=5F5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA=24= > > > > > > >> > > > >> -- > > > >> I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > > >> > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/=5F=5Fhttps://wayforward.archive.org/=3Fs= ite=3Dhttps*3A*2=46*2=46www.icei.org=5F=5F;JSUl=21=21CQl3mcHX2A=21TjZjoTC= GYO2gkt9xYrGd=46rivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3=5F5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA=24 > > > > > > >> > > > >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > > >> =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= > > > >> Starlink mailing list > > > >> Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > > > > > > >> > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/=5F=5Fhttps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listi= nfo/starlink=5F=5F;=21=21CQl3mcHX2A=21TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGd=46rivrejHIdNjV= e0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3=5F5CxlN2sj=5FSP7yVhg=24 > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= > > > Starlink mailing list > > > Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > > URL: > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Message: 2 > > > Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 12:36:42 -0800 (PST) > > > =46rom: David Lang > > > To: Nathan Owens > > > Cc: David Lang , Dave Taht = , > > > =22starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net=22 > > > Subject: Re: =5BStarlink=5D recent starlink rrul test result > > > Message-ID: <87o7734r-5ns1-q734-0qr-q0o06sp72s46=40ynat.uz> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D=22utf-8=22; =46ormat=3D=22flow= ed=22 > > > > > > flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.t= aht.net > > > --te=3Dupload=5Fstreams=3D1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp=5Fnup > > > > > > flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.t= aht.net > > > --te=3Ddownload=5Fstreams=3D1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp=5Fndown > > > > > > flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.t= aht.net > > > --te=3Dupload=5Fstreams=3D8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp=5Fnup > > > > > > flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.t= aht.net > > > --te=3Ddownload=5Fstreams=3D8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp=5Fndown > > > > > > flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.t= aht.net -t > > > dlangs-dishy rrul=5Fbe > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Nathan Owens wrote: > > > > > > > Same here, Google Meet / Zoom / Teams / =46aceTime are great. > > > > > > > > Dave, can you post the commands to run those flent measurements=3F= I also > > > > finally recreated that irtt-based scatterplot, attached. > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:15 AM David Lang wrote= : > > > > > > > >> That said, I've been using starlink for work zoom calls for a wh= ile with > > > >> no > > > >> significant issues (nothing I can pin on my side vs the other > > > participants) > > > >> > > > >> David Lang > > > >> > > > >> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> wildly variable bandwidth, adjusted at 15 sec intervals, induce= d > > > >>> latencies of 400ms, really terrible upload throughput relative = to > > > >>> down. > > > >>> > > > >>> H/T David Lang for this data. > > > >>> > > > >>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:31 AM Livingood, Jason > > > >>> wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>> When folks experience sub-par video conferencing over Starlink= , > > > it'd be > > > >> great to see working latency stats at that time - such as via th= e easy > > > test > > > >> at https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> On 2/23/22, 09:38, =22Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht=22 < > > > >> starlink-bounces=40lists.bufferbloat.net on behalf of > > > dave.taht=40gmail.com> > > > >> wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/=5F=5Fhttps://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/= starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html=5F=5F;=21=21CQl3mcHX2A=21Tj= ZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGd=46rivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3=5F5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA=24= > > > >>>> > > > >>>> -- > > > >>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/=5F=5Fhttps://wayforward.archive.org/=3Fs= ite=3Dhttps*3A*2=46*2=46www.icei.org=5F=5F;JSUl=21=21CQl3mcHX2A=21TjZjoTC= GYO2gkt9xYrGd=46rivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3=5F5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA=24 > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > > >>>> =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F > > > >>>> Starlink mailing list > > > >>>> Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/=5F=5Fhttps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listi= nfo/starlink=5F=5F;=21=21CQl3mcHX2A=21TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGd=46rivrejHIdNjV= e0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3=5F5CxlN2sj=5FSP7yVhg=24 > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F > > > >> Starlink mailing list > > > >> Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > > > >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Message: 3 > > > Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 12:37:25 -0800 (PST) > > > =46rom: David Lang > > > To: David Lang > > > Cc: Nathan Owens , Dave Taht , > > > =22starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net=22 > > > Subject: Re: =5BStarlink=5D recent starlink rrul test result > > > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D=22utf-8=22; =46ormat=3D=22flow= ed=22 > > > > > > and the irtt > > > > > > irtt client --dscp=3D0xfe -i3ms -d20m fremont.starlink.taht.net > > > > > > On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, David Lang wrote: > > > > > > > flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink= .taht.net > > > > --te=3Dupload=5Fstreams=3D1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp=5Fnup > > > > > > > > flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink= .taht.net > > > > --te=3Ddownload=5Fstreams=3D1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp=5Fndown > > > > > > > > flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink= .taht.net > > > > --te=3Dupload=5Fstreams=3D8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp=5Fnup > > > > > > > > flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink= .taht.net > > > > --te=3Ddownload=5Fstreams=3D8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp=5Fndown > > > > > > > > flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink= .taht.net -t > > > > dlangs-dishy rrul=5Fbe > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Nathan Owens wrote: > > > > > > > >> Same here, Google Meet / Zoom / Teams / =46aceTime are great. > > > >> > > > >> Dave, can you post the commands to run those flent measurements=3F= I also > > > >> finally recreated that irtt-based scatterplot, attached. > > > >> > > > >> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:15 AM David Lang wrot= e: > > > >> > > > >>> That said, I've been using starlink for work zoom calls for a w= hile > > > with > > > >>> no > > > >>> significant issues (nothing I can pin on my side vs the other > > > >>> participants) > > > >>> > > > >>> David Lang > > > >>> > > > >>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>>> wildly variable bandwidth, adjusted at 15 sec intervals, induc= ed > > > >>>> latencies of 400ms, really terrible upload throughput relative= to > > > >>>> down. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> H/T David Lang for this data. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:31 AM Livingood, Jason > > > >>>> wrote: > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> When folks experience sub-par video conferencing over > > > Starlink, it'd be > > > >>> great to see working latency stats at that time - such as via t= he > > > easy > > > >>> test > > > >>> at https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> On 2/23/22, 09:38, =22Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht=22 > > > < > > > >>> starlink-bounces=40lists.bufferbloat.net on behalf of > > > dave.taht=40gmail.com> > > > >>> wrote: > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>> > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/=5F=5Fhttps://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/= starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html=5F=5F;=21=21CQl3mcHX2A=21Tj= ZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGd=46rivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3=5F5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA=24= > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> -- > > > >>>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > > >>>>> > > > >>> > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/=5F=5Fhttps://wayforward.archive.org/=3Fs= ite=3Dhttps*3A*2=46*2=46www.icei.org=5F=5F;JSUl=21=21CQl3mcHX2A=21TjZjoTC= GYO2gkt9xYrGd=46rivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3=5F5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA=24 > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > > >>>>> =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F > > > >>>>> Starlink mailing list > > > >>>>> Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > > > >>>>> > > > >>> > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/=5F=5Fhttps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listi= nfo/starlink=5F=5F;=21=21CQl3mcHX2A=21TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGd=46rivrejHIdNjV= e0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3=5F5CxlN2sj=5FSP7yVhg=24 > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F > > > >>> Starlink mailing list > > > >>> Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > > > >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Message: 4 > > > Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 22:01:36 +0000 > > > =46rom: Larry Press > > > To: Mike Puchol , Dave Taht , > > > David Lang > > > Cc: =22starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net=22 > > > Subject: Re: =5BStarlink=5D spacex & ukraine > > > Message-ID: > > > > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D=22windows-1252=22 > > > > > > > The balance, as David mentions, is on the value of the target vs.= the effort > > > required to strike. > > > > > > The value of allowing government and resistance leaders and journal= ists to > > > communicate with each other and the outside world seems quite high,= making the > > > terminals attractive targets for the Russians. > > > > > > The cost of locating and striking a target also seems high -- Ukrai= ne is large and > > > the terminals are portable. SpaceX is testing roaming without re-re= gistration in > > > California/Nevada > > > (https://circleid.com/posts/20220225-spacex-is-testing-starlink-roa= ming). If > > > SpaceX is listening -- consider enabling roaming in by the users in= Ukraine. > > > > > > Larry > > > > > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F > > > =46rom: Starlink on beha= lf of Mike > > > Puchol > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2022 1:06 AM > > > To: Dave Taht ; David Lang = > > > Cc: starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > > > Subject: Re: =5BStarlink=5D spacex & ukraine > > > > > > Thank you Dave, the honor is mine to share a mailing list with so m= any people who > > > know way more than I do, about any subject I could point my finger = at, so I really > > > appreciate it. > > > > > > On the subject at hand, ELINT/SIGINT and traffic analysis has evolv= ed massively > > > over the years. In the mid-90s, the Chechen president was killed by= Russia with a > > > missile strike, based on his satcom phone signals, which included d= ecoding the > > > speech and matching to ensure they were hitting the right target. > > > > > > The balance, as David mentions, is on the value of the target vs. t= he effort > > > required to strike. It is relatively easy to monitor cellular netwo= rks, decrypt > > > the traffic, and triangulate to almost automatically target & strik= e. The same > > > happens with VSAT, which operates against a fixed satellite, so an = aircraft high > > > enough will be in the path between a large portion of the ground an= d the > > > satellite. > > > > > > With Starlink, the challenge is two-fold. You must be able to detec= t & locate the > > > 4.5=C2=BA wide uplink beam from a terminal, which constantly moves = - this can be > > > done by measuring just the R=46 levels and using an ESA to find the= source. You must > > > also ensure that the user of the terminal is a target valuable enou= gh to justify a > > > strike, which would be a lot harder, as you need to keep a good eno= ugh SNR to > > > demodulate, then you=E2=80=99d need to decrypt. Doing this in real = time on an > > > airborne platform is quite a challenge. > > > > > > Bottom line: unless Russia goes all-out against anyone using any fo= rm of radio > > > comms (phones, VSAT, satcom, Starlink, etc.) and they just blindly = strike any > > > source of R=46, a Starlink user has a good chance to avoid being ta= rgeted by just > > > using the terminal. Different case is if terminals get used by the = military, and > > > Russia then assumes Starlink =3D military target. We=E2=80=99re far= from any clear > > > scenario, so we need to wait & see. > > > > > > A couple of weeks ago I sent a Ku band LNB to Oleg, tuned to the St= arlink uplink > > > band (12.75 - 14.5 GHz), but it arrived a couple of days before the= invasion > > > began, so he didn=E2=80=99t get a chance to do any analysis on the = TX side of the > > > terminal. > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Mike > > > On Mar 1, 2022, 22:15 +0300, David Lang , wrote: > > > a couple thoughts on anti-radiation missiles being fired at starlin= k dishes > > > > > > 1. the dishes are fairly low power (100w or less) and rather direct= ional, so > > > they aren't great targets. > > > > > > 2. dishes cost =46AR less than the missiles that would be fired at = them, and are > > > being produced at a much higher rate (although there are probably m= ore missles > > > in the Russian inventory than spare dishes in SpaceX inventory) > > > > > > direction finding teams with boots on the ground could be more of a= threat, but > > > the higher frequency signals are blocked fairly easily (which is wh= y the dishes > > > need a clear view of the sky). It takes a fair amount of training t= o be good at > > > direction finding on weak and intermittent signals. > > > > > > David Lang > > > > > > On Tue, 1 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote: > > > > > > Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 13:55:47 -0500 > > > =46rom: Dave Taht > > > To: starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > > > Subject: =5BStarlink=5D spacex & ukraine > > > > > > It is an ongoing honor to have mike puchol sharing his insights wit= h > > > us, also, on this list. > > > > > > https://spacenews.com/spacex-heeds-ukraines-starlink-sos/ > > > > > > -- > > > I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > > https://wayforward.archive.org/=3Fsite=3Dhttps%3A%2=46%2=46www.icei= .org > > > > > > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F > > > Starlink mailing list > > > Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F > > > Starlink mailing list > > > Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > > URL: > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Subject: Digest =46ooter > > > > > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F > > > Starlink mailing list > > > Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > End of Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 > > > *************************************** > > > > > > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F > > Starlink mailing list > > Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > -- > **************************************************************** > Dr. Ulrich Speidel > > School of Computer Science > > Room 303S.594 (City Campus) > > The University of Auckland > u.speidel=40auckland.ac.nz > http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/=7Eulrich/ > **************************************************************** > > > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F > Starlink mailing list > Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink --6221b8f8_540a471c_3bd Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
IMHO unless we are addressing actual weapons, we ar= e in murky waters. Take toilet paper. It is an element of Molotov cocktai= ls, does it become classified as a weapon=3F Or in fact, anything that ca= n aid one of the sides in their fight, including food and medical supplie= s.

Our WISP in Kenya gets asked, very often, =E2=80=9Cwhy do you provide int= ernet in slums, don=E2=80=99t they need like, food, clean water, healtcar= e, before internet=3F=E2=80=9D.&=23160;

The answer to that is two-pronged. =46irst, we are good at =E2=80=9Cdoing= internet=E2=80=9D, in a way cost-effective enough that our business actu= ally employs hundreds of Kenyans, many from these slums, and provides unl= imited broadband internet to underprivileged communities at affordable pr= ices. We don=E2=80=99t know how to =E2=80=9Cdo=22 clean water or healthca= re, so we try to make an impact with what we know.

Secondly, the Human Rights Council of the UN produced, in 2011, a report,= which stated:

=22The Special Rapporteur underscores the unique and transformative n= ature of the Internet not only to enable individuals to exercise their ri= ght to freedom of opinion and expression, but also a range of other human= rights, and to promote the progress of society as a whole=E2=80=9D.=

Many news outlets picked on this to conclude =E2=80=9CThe UN declares int= ernet a basic human right=E2=80=9D - which is not what the report says (f= ull text here:&=23160;= https://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/17session/A.HRC.17.2= 7=5Fen.pdf). What it does say is it can enable the right to freedom o= f opinion and expression, something which Russia is trying to shut down, = both in Ukraine and in Russia itself, applying sanctions to those who dis= seminate =E2=80=9Cnon-official=E2=80=9D information.

Thus, my personal view is that a few Starlink terminals that can restore = connectivity to areas where it has been limited, have benefits that outwe= igh the possibility that they get used for military comms or such.

Best,

Mike
On Mar 4, 2022, 08:06 +0300, Ulrich= Speidel <u.speidel=40auckland.ac.nz>, wrote:

Kia ora David=21 I'd personally grieve if anyone came to harm as a res= ult of any insight I'd shared here, and I don't care whether that would b= e a Russian soldier or a Ukrainian freedom fighter, or heaven forbid a ci= vilian not involved in the hostilities. I've already had an indirect appr= oach from a party in the conflict this week to provide resources for cybe= r-warriors, and have politely declined and informed our university's chie= f information security officer, whose response to me was that he would ha= ve been a lot less polite than me.

A significant part of the tensions you currently see explode in Ukrain= e have festered for decades and are rooted in Russia's gas exports to Wes= tern Europe. That gas has flowed for many decades, a big part of it throu= gh the territory of today's Ukraine. The pipelines go back to Soviet days= when Ukraine was part of the USSR. Germany, as Russia's main gas custome= r, always found their Russian business partners to be reliable and faithf= ul to contracts signed (my father was a commercial lawyer in the city of = Essen, and dealt a lot with Ruhrgas there, then Germany's biggest gas com= pany and the USSR's / Russia's biggest customer in Germany, and knows the= former CEO). When the USSR fell apart, Russia suddenly found itself with= another transit country along its pipeline. Ukraine insisted on being su= pplied at rates they would nominate. Russia was faced with a choice betwe= en supplying Ukraine for cheap or losing its ability to supply Western Eu= rope. That's why they wanted the Nord Stream 2 pipeline so badly. After y= ears of multi-party negotiations with the US trying to talk Germany out o= f saying yes to the pipeline, the Germans were left with the impression t= hat US insistence was in no small parts motivated by them wanting to sell= US-produced LPG to Europe.

None of that is an excuse for a brutal invasion, of course, but maybe = a reminder that life is sometimes a bit more complex than is suitable for= a simple good-bad scheme.

I laud Starlink and other initiatives for adding options to preserve c= onnectivity for people in Ukraine, however small these options will be in= scale, and hope that the good that will come out of the ability to suppo= rt innocent civilians and shine light into dark corners will outweigh any= use for the pursuit of hostilities and any risks to those using it.

On 4/03/2022 12:47 pm, David P. Reed w= rote:

I'm re= ally appreciating all the analysis of Starlink in Ukraine context here.

&=2316= 0;

Howeve= r, it's a lot distressing that the focus is on =22military operations=22 = context.

It see= ms like most of the commentators want to be armchair military commanders = in a situation where the last thing any Ukrainian needs is more attacks a= nd bloodshed (no matter how precision-guided).

&=2316= 0;

Are we= helping Elon Musk become an international arms dealer=3F Is that what he= wants=3F

&=2316= 0;

So how= is Starlink helping get aid to the vast majority (of any political persu= asion) who just want to survive and don't really want to incinerate ANYON= E with a Molotov cocktail=3F

&=2316= 0;

Surely= there are applications of Starlink and Internet to peace other than the = US's favorite mantra (if you remember) =22Kill for Peace, Kill, Kill, Kil= l for Peace=22&=23160;

&=2316= 0;

This a= lso strikes me about the ideas aimed at punishing Russia by disconnecting= if from the Internet at the borders and denying the people living there = from accessing PayPal, etc.

&=2316= 0;

&=2316= 0;

On Thu= rsday, March 3, 2022 5:01pm, starlink-reque= st=40lists.bufferbloat.net said:

> S= end Starlink mailing list submissions to
> starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<= /a>
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> starlink-request=40lists.bufferbloat.n= et
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>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<= br /> > than =22Re: Contents of Starlink digest...=22
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: recent starlink rrul test result (tom=40evslin.com)=
> 2. Re: recent starlink rrul test result (David Lang)
> 3. Re: recent starlink rrul test result (David Lang)
> 4. Re: spacex & ukraine (Larry Press)
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------= --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 12:42:54 -0500
> =46rom: <tom=40evslin.com>
> To: =22'Nathan Owens'=22 <nathan=40nathan.io>, =22'Da= vid Lang'=22
> <david=40lang.hm>
> Cc: <starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net><= br /> > Subject: Re: =5BStarlink=5D recent starlink rrul test result
> Message-ID: <23e201d82f26=24= 1d938720=2458ba9560=24=40evslin.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D=22utf-8=22
>
> I=E2=80=99ve also stayed with my Starlink connection for teleconfere= ncing altho we
> now have fiber available. My connection is not usually the worst on = the call but
> not perfect either. If I were a job seeker or being paid to present = AND I had a
> choice, I wouldn=E2=80=99t use Starlink when critical
>
>
>
> =46rom: Starlink <starlink-bounces=40l= ists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf Of Nathan
> Owens
> Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 12:16 PM
> To: David Lang <david=40lang.hm>
> Cc: starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net
= > Subject: Re: =5BStarlink=5D recent starlink rrul test result
>
>
>
> Same here, Google Meet / Zoom / Teams / =46aceTime are great.
>
>
>
> Dave, can you post the commands to run those flent measurements=3F I= also finally
> recreated that irtt-based scatterplot, attached.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:15 AM David Lang <david=40lang.hm
> <mailto:david=40lang.hm> > wrote:
>
> That said, I've been using starlink for work zoom calls for a while = with no
> significant issues (nothing I can pin on my side vs the other partic= ipants)
>
> David Lang
>
> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote:
>
> > wildly variable bandwidth, adjusted at 15 sec intervals, induce= d
> > latencies of 400ms, really terrible upload throughput relative = to
> > down.
> >
> > H/T David Lang for this data.
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:31 AM Livingood, Jason
> > <Jason=5FLivingood=40comcast.com <mailto:Jason=5FLivingood=40comcast.com>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> When folks experience sub-par video conferencing over Starl= ink, it'd be
> great to see working latency stats at that time - such as via the ea= sy test at
> https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat.
= > >>
> >> On 2/23/22, 09:38, =22Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht=22 > <starlink-bounces=40lists.bufferblo= at.net
> <mailto:starlink-bounces=40lists.buffe= rbloat.net> on behalf of
> dave.taht=40gmail.com <mailto:dave.taht=40= gmail.com> > wrote:
> >>
> >>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/= =5F=5Fhttps://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-go= ing-down.html=5F=5F;=21=21CQl3mcHX2A=21TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGd=46rivrejHIdNj= Ve0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3=5F5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA=24
> <https://urldefense.com/= v3/=5F=5Fhttps:/blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-= going-down.html=5F=5F;=21=21CQl3mcHX2A=21TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGd=46rivrejHId= NjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3=5F5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA=24>
> >>
> >> --
> >> I tried to build a better future, a few times:
> >>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/=5F=5F= https://wayforward.archive.org/=3Fsite=3Dhttps*3A*2=46*2=46www.icei.org=5F= =5F;JSUl=21=21CQl3mcHX2A=21TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGd=46rivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfD= JTyNNy4u3=5F5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA=24
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/=5F= =5Fhttps:/wayforward.archive.org/=3Fsite=3Dhttps*3A*2=46*2=46www.icei.org= =5F=5F;JSUl=21=21CQl3mcHX2A=21TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGd=46rivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCu= QfDJTyNNy4u3=5F5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA=24>
> >>
> >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
> >> =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F
> >> Starlink mailing list
> >> Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net<= br /> > <mailto:Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net>
> >>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/=5F=5Fhttps://lists.bufferbloat= .net/listinfo/starlink=5F=5F;=21=21CQl3mcHX2A=21TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGd=46ri= vrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3=5F5CxlN2sj=5FSP7yVhg=24
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/=5F=5Fhttps:/lists.bufferblo= at.net/listinfo/starlink=5F=5F;=21=21CQl3mcHX2A=21TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGd=46= rivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3=5F5CxlN2sj=5FSP7yVhg=24>
> >>
> >
> >
> >=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net>
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<= /a>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/starlink/attachments/2022= 0303/9fd1da2c/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 12:36:42 -0800 (PST)
> =46rom: David Lang <david=40lang.hm>
> To: Nathan Owens <nathan=40nathan.io>
> Cc: David Lang <david=40lang.hm>, Dave Taht <da= ve.taht=40gmail.com>,
> =22starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net=22 <starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Subject: Re: =5BStarlink=5D recent starlink rrul test result
> Message-ID: <87o7734r-5ns1-q734-0= qr-q0o06sp72s46=40ynat.uz>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D=22utf-8=22; =46ormat=3D=22flowe= d=22
>
> flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.ta= ht.net
> --te=3Dupload=5Fstreams=3D1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp=5Fnup
>
> flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.ta= ht.net
> --te=3Ddownload=5Fstreams=3D1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp=5Fndown
>
> flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.ta= ht.net
> --te=3Dupload=5Fstreams=3D8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp=5Fnup
>
> flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.ta= ht.net
> --te=3Ddownload=5Fstreams=3D8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp=5Fndown
>
> flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.ta= ht.net -t
> dlangs-dishy rrul=5Fbe
>
>
> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Nathan Owens wrote:
>
> > Same here, Google Meet / Zoom / Teams / =46aceTime are great. > >
> > Dave, can you post the commands to run those flent measurements= =3F I also
> > finally recreated that irtt-based scatterplot, attached.
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:15 AM David Lang <david=40lang.hm= > wrote:
> >
> >> That said, I've been using starlink for work zoom calls for= a while with
> >> no
> >> significant issues (nothing I can pin on my side vs the oth= er
> participants)
> >>
> >> David Lang
> >>
> >> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote:
> >>
> >>> wildly variable bandwidth, adjusted at 15 sec intervals= , induced
> >>> latencies of 400ms, really terrible upload throughput r= elative to
> >>> down.
> >>>
> >>> H/T David Lang for this data.
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:31 AM Livingood, Jason
> >>> <Jason=5FLivingood=40comcast.com&g= t; wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> When folks experience sub-par video conferencing ov= er Starlink,
> it'd be
> >> great to see working latency stats at that time - such as v= ia the easy
> test
> >> at https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat<= /a>.
> >>>>
> >>>> On 2/23/22, 09:38, =22Starlink on behalf of Dave Ta= ht=22 <
> >> starlink-bounces=40lists.buff= erbloat.net on behalf of
> dave.taht=40gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/= =5F=5Fhttps://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-go= ing-down.html=5F=5F;=21=21CQl3mcHX2A=21TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGd=46rivrejHIdNj= Ve0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3=5F5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA=24
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times:
> >>>>
> >>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/=5F=5F= https://wayforward.archive.org/=3Fsite=3Dhttps*3A*2=46*2=46www.icei.org=5F= =5F;JSUl=21=21CQl3mcHX2A=21TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGd=46rivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfD= JTyNNy4u3=5F5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA=24
> >>>>
> >>>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
> >>>> =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
> >>>> Starlink mailing list
> >>>> Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.n= et
> >>>>
> >>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/=5F=5Fhttps://lists.bufferbloat= .net/listinfo/starlink=5F=5F;=21=21CQl3mcHX2A=21TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGd=46ri= vrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3=5F5CxlN2sj=5FSP7yVhg=24
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F
> >> Starlink mailing list
> >> Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net<= br /> > >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/= starlink
> >>
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 12:37:25 -0800 (PST)
> =46rom: David Lang <david=40lang.hm>
> To: David Lang <david=40lang.hm>
> Cc: Nathan Owens <nathan=40nathan.io>, Dave Taht <dave.taht=40gmail.com>,
> =22starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net=22 <starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Subject: Re: =5BStarlink=5D recent starlink rrul test result
> Message-ID: <sp882r34-92q4-4019-= 8oo3-68r5n53s19n5=40ynat.uz>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D=22utf-8=22; =46ormat=3D=22flowe= d=22
>
> and the irtt
>
> irtt client --dscp=3D0xfe -i3ms -d20m fremont.starlink.taht.net
>
> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, David Lang wrote:
>
> > flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starli= nk.taht.net
> > --te=3Dupload=5Fstreams=3D1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp=5Fnup
> >
> > flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starli= nk.taht.net
> > --te=3Ddownload=5Fstreams=3D1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp=5Fndown
= > >
> > flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starli= nk.taht.net
> > --te=3Dupload=5Fstreams=3D8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp=5Fnup
> >
> > flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starli= nk.taht.net
> > --te=3Ddownload=5Fstreams=3D8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp=5Fndown
> >
> > flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starli= nk.taht.net -t
> > dlangs-dishy rrul=5Fbe
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Nathan Owens wrote:
> >
> >> Same here, Google Meet / Zoom / Teams / =46aceTime are grea= t.
> >>
> >> Dave, can you post the commands to run those flent measurem= ents=3F I also
> >> finally recreated that irtt-based scatterplot, attached. > >>
> >> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:15 AM David Lang <david=40lan= g.hm> wrote:
> >>
> >>> That said, I've been using starlink for work zoom calls= for a while
> with
> >>> no
> >>> significant issues (nothing I can pin on my side vs the= other
> >>> participants)
> >>>
> >>> David Lang
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> wildly variable bandwidth, adjusted at 15 sec inter= vals, induced
> >>>> latencies of 400ms, really terrible upload throughp= ut relative to
> >>>> down.
> >>>>
> >>>> H/T David Lang for this data.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:31 AM Livingood, Jason
> >>>> <Jason=5FLivingood=40comcast.c= om> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> When folks experience sub-par video conferencin= g over
> Starlink, it'd be
> >>> great to see working latency stats at that time - such = as via the
> easy
> >>> test
> >>> at https://www.waveform.com/tools/buffer= bloat.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 2/23/22, 09:38, =22Starlink on behalf of Dav= e Taht=22
> <
> >>> starlink-bounces=40lists.= bufferbloat.net on behalf of
> dave.taht=40gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/= =5F=5Fhttps://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-go= ing-down.html=5F=5F;=21=21CQl3mcHX2A=21TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGd=46rivrejHIdNj= Ve0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3=5F5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA=24
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times:<= br /> > >>>>>
> >>>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/=5F=5F= https://wayforward.archive.org/=3Fsite=3Dhttps*3A*2=46*2=46www.icei.org=5F= =5F;JSUl=21=21CQl3mcHX2A=21TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGd=46rivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfD= JTyNNy4u3=5F5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA=24
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
> >>>>> =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
> >>>>> Starlink mailing list
> >>>>> Starlink=40lists.bufferbloa= t.net
> >>>>>
> >>>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/=5F=5Fhttps://lists.bufferbloat= .net/listinfo/starlink=5F=5F;=21=21CQl3mcHX2A=21TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGd=46ri= vrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3=5F5CxlN2sj=5FSP7yVhg=24
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
> >>> Starlink mailing list
> >>> Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net<= /a>
> >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listi= nfo/starlink
> >>>
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 22:01:36 +0000
> =46rom: Larry Press <lpress=40csudh.edu>
> To: Mike Puchol <mike=40starlink.sx>, Dave Taht <dave.taht=40gmail.com>,
> David Lang <david=40lang.hm>
> Cc: =22starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net=22 <starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Subject: Re: =5BStarlink=5D spacex & ukraine
> Message-ID:
> <BYAPR03MB386303=4648A1=461EBB=468AB3B3DC2049=40BYAPR03MB3863.nam= prd03.prod.outlook.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D=22windows-1252=22
>
> > The balance, as David mentions, is on the value of the target v= s. the effort
> required to strike.
>
> The value of allowing government and resistance leaders and journali= sts to
> communicate with each other and the outside world seems quite high, = making the
> terminals attractive targets for the Russians.
>
> The cost of locating and striking a target also seems high -- Ukrain= e is large and
> the terminals are portable. SpaceX is testing roaming without re-reg= istration in
> California/Nevada
> (https://circleid.com/pos= ts/20220225-spacex-is-testing-starlink-roaming). If
> SpaceX is listening -- consider enabling roaming in by the users in = Ukraine.
>
> Larry
>
> =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
> =46rom: Starlink <starlink-bounces=40l= ists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of Mike
> Puchol <mike=40starlink.sx>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2022 1:06 AM
> To: Dave Taht <dave.taht=40gmail.com>; David Lang = <david=40lang.hm>
> Cc: starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net <starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Subject: Re: =5BStarlink=5D spacex & ukraine
>
> Thank you Dave, the honor is mine to share a mailing list with so ma= ny people who
> know way more than I do, about any subject I could point my finger a= t, so I really
> appreciate it.
>
> On the subject at hand, ELINT/SIGINT and traffic analysis has evolve= d massively
> over the years. In the mid-90s, the Chechen president was killed by = Russia with a
> missile strike, based on his satcom phone signals, which included de= coding the
> speech and matching to ensure they were hitting the right target. >
> The balance, as David mentions, is on the value of the target vs. th= e effort
> required to strike. It is relatively easy to monitor cellular networ= ks, decrypt
> the traffic, and triangulate to almost automatically target & st= rike. The same
> happens with VSAT, which operates against a fixed satellite, so an a= ircraft high
> enough will be in the path between a large portion of the ground and= the
> satellite.
>
> With Starlink, the challenge is two-fold. You must be able to detect= & locate the
> 4.5=C2=BA wide uplink beam from a terminal, which constantly moves -= this can be
> done by measuring just the R=46 levels and using an ESA to find the = source. You must
> also ensure that the user of the terminal is a target valuable enoug= h to justify a
> strike, which would be a lot harder, as you need to keep a good enou= gh SNR to
> demodulate, then you=E2=80=99d need to decrypt. Doing this in real t= ime on an
> airborne platform is quite a challenge.
>
> Bottom line: unless Russia goes all-out against anyone using any for= m of radio
> comms (phones, VSAT, satcom, Starlink, etc.) and they just blindly s= trike any
> source of R=46, a Starlink user has a good chance to avoid being tar= geted by just
> using the terminal. Different case is if terminals get used by the m= ilitary, and
> Russia then assumes Starlink =3D military target. We=E2=80=99re far = from any clear
> scenario, so we need to wait & see.
>
> A couple of weeks ago I sent a Ku band LNB to Oleg, tuned to the Sta= rlink uplink
> band (12.75 - 14.5 GHz), but it arrived a couple of days before the = invasion
> began, so he didn=E2=80=99t get a chance to do any analysis on the T= X side of the
> terminal.
>
> Best,
>
> Mike
> On Mar 1, 2022, 22:15 +0300, David Lang <david=40lang.hm>, wrote:
> a couple thoughts on anti-radiation missiles being fired at starlink= dishes
>
> 1. the dishes are fairly low power (100w or less) and rather directi= onal, so
> they aren't great targets.
>
> 2. dishes cost =46AR less than the missiles that would be fired at t= hem, and are
> being produced at a much higher rate (although there are probably mo= re missles
> in the Russian inventory than spare dishes in SpaceX inventory)
>
> direction finding teams with boots on the ground could be more of a = threat, but
> the higher frequency signals are blocked fairly easily (which is why= the dishes
> need a clear view of the sky). It takes a fair amount of training to= be good at
> direction finding on weak and intermittent signals.
>
> David Lang
>
> On Tue, 1 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote:
>
> Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 13:55:47 -0500
> =46rom: Dave Taht <dave.taht=40gmail.com>
> To: starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net
= > Subject: =5BStarlink=5D spacex & ukraine
>
> It is an ongoing honor to have mike puchol sharing his insights with=
> us, also, on this list.
>
> https://spacenews.com/spacex-heeds-ukr= aines-starlink-sos/<https://urldefense.co= m/v3/=5F=5Fhttps://spacenews.com/spacex-heeds-ukraines-starlink-sos/=5F=5F= ;=21=21P7nkOOY=21uT2pzIfUc=46bj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5Szg= Xoi=46K1cNklRuLosonTTiDHWk8=24>
>
> --
> I tried to build a better future, a few times:
> https://wayforward.archi= ve.org/=3Fsite=3Dhttps%3A%2=46%2=46www.icei.org<https://urldefense.com/v3/=5F=5Fhttps://wayforwa= rd.archive.org/=3Fsite=3Dhttps*3A*2=46*2=46www.icei.org=5F=5F;JSUl=21=21P= 7nkOOY=21uT2pzIfUc=46bj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoi=46K1= cNklRuLosonTw6dgoHU=24>
>
> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
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-- =20
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The University of Auckland
u.speidel=40auckland.ac.nz =20
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