From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (bobcat.rjmcmahon.com [45.33.58.123]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A74A3B29D; Sat, 16 Dec 2023 17:29:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from [192.168.1.50] (c-69-181-111-171.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [69.181.111.171]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8E7B51B25E; Sat, 16 Dec 2023 14:29:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 bobcat.rjmcmahon.com 8E7B51B25E DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rjmcmahon.com; s=bobcat; t=1702765740; bh=Ds8NJGtfD53oS5Z6PxjeX1/GhDLzhkQ7YCHk8Xp1wMQ=; h=In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Date:To:CC:From; b=VGO+Qozh9fnptKrkqQgN8Ropo10NcXsR5isUK4oyqZYT3/5dAZ9JCIHm/atXNVguk T+16cSKX/0WaByjBTouRcf6u3rSP/Ck/XP7gL8BI79SXt+Tx0cMTsTxnRPA9E1kmYp K4sx7jCRmsCCRn+RiD5XONMUYmzxKyaQSO8PwCOY= In-Reply-To: References: <02cc2879-ef99-4388-bc1e-335a4aaff6aa@gmail.com> <18A40E71-F636-41A9-A8A7-0F4F69E3C99F@gmx.de> <650s1558-6310-063q-s5q2-o782rnnoss29@ynat.uz> <471154o6-no08-67or-p1o2-np919ro26osp@ynat.uz> <05ef1cd50d0e0a681b2cd38b1bdeb0a9@rjmcmahon.com> <4p61qp8r-p1p1-r83r-n283-315548o163po@ynat.uz> <3b1dac448b6590029679a7c22516c40c@rjmcmahon.com> X-Referenced-Uid: 00011dba567702d5 Thread-Topic: Re: [NNagain] [Starlink] FCC Upholds Denial of Starlink's RDOF Application User-Agent: Android X-Is-Generated-Message-Id: true MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----SPPSTW7VLQ3EJT0RPZ3WY8Z3BJJDIV" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Robert McMahon Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 14:28:53 -0800 To: Ronan Pigott via Nnagain CC: Dave Taht via Starlink , Frantisek Borsik Message-ID: <04b32733-b413-481a-94ea-da6dadbd0802@rjmcmahon.com> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [NNagain] FCC Upholds Denial of Starlink's RDOF Application X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 22:29:01 -0000 ------SPPSTW7VLQ3EJT0RPZ3WY8Z3BJJDIV Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Elon Musk can afford to take starlink to markey without the government subs= idies=2E It's past time to stop subsidizing the richest person on the plane= t=2E =E2=81=A3Bob On Dec 16, 2023, 1:44 PM, at 1:44 PM, Frantisek Borsik = via Nnagain wrote: >When someone is spe= aking with a C-suit of the 25Gbps ISP that still >believes "in over-provisi= oning=2E QoS/QoE is for those ISPs which have >less >bandwidth than they ne= ed" (paraphrasing) - that particular someone >knows >that there is still SO= much work in front of us=2E > >*trying to bring this thread back on track = :-) > >So this thread started with FCC denial to Starlink=2E Those 640k >lo= cations >will not be served in the coming years (1-5 years, for that partic= ular >amount of $)=2E Their only hope was to get served by Starlink=2E If F= CC >will >decide to give those money to someone else, it's total farce=2E S= tarlink, >in >this particular case, was their only hope=2E Do you really th= ink that you >will see WISPs popping up at those locations? Do you see FISP= s doing >it? Or >anyone with DOCSIS? No way=2E > >This decision was pure po= litical BS - a revenge against Musk=2E And those >people living at these lo= cations in question are the ones that will >loose >the most in the crossfir= e=2E It's sad=2E No matter how much mental >gymnastics >you want to apply h= ere in order to legitimise this post-facto=2E No >internet? >Starlink would= bring at least some internet connectivity to them - I, >those >people or a= nyone without a pure political bias in this case, should not >give a flying= F that "THiS iS nOt A rEaL 1gbps/500mbps bRoADband" or >whatever=2E They w= ant and need at least some internet connectivity=2E The >only >way to deliv= er it to them in a reasonable timeframe is Starlink=2E > >All the best, > >= Frank > >Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > > > >https://www=2Elinkedin=2Ecom/in/fr= antisekborsik > >Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 > >iMessage, mob= ile: +420775230885 > >Skype: casioa5302ca > >frantisek=2Eborsik@gmail=2Ecom= > > >On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 7:48=E2=80=AFPM Robert McMahon via Nnagain < = >nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet> wrote: > >> >> And the excuse for not h= iring women in the Criminal Division was they >have >> to deal with all the= se tough types, and women aren't up to that=2E And >I was >> amazed=2E I sa= id, have you seen the lawyers at legal aid who are >representing >> these t= ough types? They're all women=2E >> >> People ask me sometimes, when =E2=80= =94 when do you think it will it be >enough? >> When will there be enough w= omen on the court? And my answer is when >there >> are nine=2E RBG >> >> Bo= b >> On Dec 16, 2023, at 9:30 AM, rjmcmahon via Nnagain < >> nnagain@lists= =2Ebufferbloat=2Enet> wrote: >>> >>> The president who ran Harvey Mudd Coll= ege had to fix their computer >>> science problem of a 90% to 10% male to f= emale ratio=2E She was asked, >>> "What's the goal?" She responded, "It sho= uld reflect to population >so >>> 50/50=2E" The others said, "Be realistic= =2E" >>> >>> She was and she got it to 50/50 where it should be in every >t= echnology >>> group=2EThough we have more improvements to be done=2E >>> >>= > >https://hechingerreport=2Eorg/an-unnoticed-result-of-the-decline-of-men-= in-college-its-harder-for-women-to-get-in/ >>> >>> There is now way to fix = a problem without getting passed the denial >>> phase=2E This list populati= on, and the LEO worshiping of Musk >displayed >>> here by its constituents,= are very much white male things=2E Not >noticing >>> this & staying silent= on this shows a lack of integrity by the >group=2E My >>> judgment=2E >>> = >>> Bob >>> >>>> to be very clear, I am in no way saying that anyone's (le= t alone >>>> saying women's) views are not desired=2E I think a diversity = of >views if >>>> extremely valuable=2E >>>> >>>> I just get my back up w= hen people say things like 'there need to >more >>>> X in charge' (for any= value of X that refers to a characteristic >that >>>> someone is born wit= h) >>>> >>>> David Lang >>>> >>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, Dave Taht wrote: >= >>> >>>> This is principally a male dominated list, and I in general assum= e >>>>> that the public debate over fiber, bandwidth, etc, etc skews >heav= ily >>>>> male also=2E >>>>> >>>>> It is a very good set of questions to = ask about how the internet >>>>> should be structured to best meet the nee= ds of both sexes, and >how >>>>> that has changed over time, and may chang= e in the future! I >hesitate >>>>> to even make one overbroad conclusion! = Permanent connectivity and >>>>> messaging seems more important to women t= han men, and a phone >more >>>>> important than fiber=2E Security (trackin= g and/or protecting kids), >>>>> also=2E It is something I would rather re= search than draw premature >>>>> conclusions from=2E >>>>> >>>>> >https:/= /www=2Egoogle=2Ecom/search?q=3Dhow+do+men+and+women+use+the+internet+differ= ently >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 1:42=E2=80=AFPM David Lang via S= tarlink >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>= >>> why do you think telehealth won't work over LEO services? >>>>>> >>>>>= > I've used it personally=2E >>>>>> >>>>>> Even if women use telehealth m= ore than men, that doesn't say >that >>>>>> women have any >>>>>> particu= lar advantage in moving the bits around that make >telehealth >>>>>> possi= ble=2E >>>>>> >>>>>> David Lang >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcma= hon wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Women are the primary users and providers of tele= health >services=2E >>>>>>> They are >>>>>>> using broadband to care for = our population=2E They also run most >of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> addiction se= rvices across our country, whatever the addiction >may >>>>>>> be=2E So >>= >>>>> gender actually matters=2E Ask them as providers=2E Telehealth >does= n't >>>>>>> work over >>>>>>> LEO (nor does it matter much for men on boa= ts=2E) Same for >distance >>>>>>> learning=2E >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >https://ww= w=2Ehealthcaredive=2Ecom/news/women-more-likely-telehealth-patients-provide= rs-covid-19-pandemic/608153/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As Washington considers which= virtual care flexibilities should >>>>>>> remain in >>>>>>> place post-C= OVID-19, experts are flagging that paring back >>>>>>> telehealth access >= >>>>>> and affordability will disproportionately affect women, even as >a = >>>>>>> growing >>>>>>> share of startups emerge to address women=E2=80= =99s unique health >needs=2E >>>>>>> >>>>>>> While women are more likely t= han men to visit doctors and >consume >>>>>>> healthcare >>>>>>> services= in general, telehealth seems to be uniquely attractive >to >>>>>>> women= =2E >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bob >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> who exactly do you think is call= ing for there to be no >Internet >>>>>>>> access? and what in the world do= es the sex of individuals have >to >>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>> with shipping bit= s around? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Starlink (and hopefully it's future competitor= s) provides a >way to >>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>> Internet service to everyone = without having to run fiber to >every >>>>>>>> house=2E >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> = As for the parallels with rural electrification, if that >problem >>>>>>>>= were >>>>>>>> to be faced today, would the right answer be massive publi= c >>>>>>>> agencies >>>>>>>> to build and run miles of wire from massive = central power >plants? >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> would the right answer be sol= ar + batteries in individual >houses >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> the most rural= folks, with small modular reactors to power the >>>>>>>> larger >>>>>>>> = population areas? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Just because there was only one way t= o achieve a goal in the >past >>>>>>>> doesn't mean that approach is the b= est thing to do today=2E >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> David Lang >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> O= n Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>>>>> >= >>>>>>>> We're trying to modernize America=2E LBJ helped do it for >>>>>>>= >> electricity >>>>>>>>> decades ago=2E It's our turn to step up to the p= late=2E >Tele-health >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> distance learning requires u= s to do so=2E There is so much to >>>>>>>>> follow=2E >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> = A reminder what many women went through before LBJ showed up=2E >I'm >>>>>= >>>> skeptical a patriarchy under Musk is even close to capable=2E >We >>>= >>>>>> probably >>>>>>>>> need a woman to lead us, or at least motivate u= s to do our >best >>>>>>>>> work for >>>>>>>>> our country and to be an e= xample to the world=2E >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> A Hill Country farm wife had to= do her chores even if she was >ill >>>>>>>>> =E2=80=93 no >>>>>>>>> matt= er how ill=2E Because Hill Country women were too poor to >afford >>>>>>>>>= proper >>>>>>>>> medical care they often suffered perineal tears in >chi= ldbirth=2E >>>>>>>>> During the >>>>>>>>> 1930s, the federal government s= ent physicians to examine a >>>>>>>>> sampling of >>>>>>>>> Hill Country = women=2E The doctors found that, out of 275 women, >158 >>>>>>>>> had >>>>= >>>>> perineal tears=2E Many of them, the team of gynecologists >reported,= >>>>>>>>> were >>>>>>>>> third-degree tears, =E2=80=9Ctears so bad that = it is difficult to see >how >>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>> stand on their feet= =2E=E2=80=9D But they were standing on their feet, >and >>>>>>>>> doing al= l >>>>>>>>> the chores that Hill Country wives had always done =E2=80=93 h= auling >the >>>>>>>>> water, >>>>>>>>> hauling the wood, canning, washing= , ironing, helping with the >>>>>>>>> shearing, >>>>>>>>> the plowing and= the picking=2E >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Because there was no electricity=2E >>= >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Bob >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, Sebastian= Moeller via Starlink wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi Frantisek, >>>>>>>>>= >> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Dec 15, 2023, at 13:46, Frantisek Borsik via= Nnagain >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>= >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thus, technically speaking, one would like the advantages= >of >>>>>>>>>>>> satcom >>>>>>>>>>>> such as starlink, to be at least 5g= bit/s in 10 years time, >to >>>>>>>>>>>> overcome >>>>>>>>>>>> the 'tangl= ed fiber' problem=2E >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> No, not really=2E Starlink = was about to address the issue of >>>>>>>>>>>> digital >>>>>>>>>>>> divid= e - >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I beg to differ=2E Starlink is = a commercial enterprise with >the >>>>>>>>>>> goal to >>>>>>>>>>> make a = profit by offering (usable) internet access >essentially >>>>>>>>>>> every= where; it is not as far as I can tell an attempt at >>>>>>>>>>> specifical= ly >>>>>>>>>>> reducing the digital divide (were often an important factor= >is >>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>> necessarily location but financial means= )=2E >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Every Inernet company " commercial = enterprise with the goal >to >>>>>>>>>> make a >>>>>>>>>> profit by offer= ing (usable) internet" don't dismiss a >company >>>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>= >>> of that=2E Starlink (and the other Satellite ISPs) all exist >to >>>>>= >>>>> service >>>>>>>>>> people who can't use traditional wired infrastru= cture >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> delivering internet to those 640k = locations, where there is >>>>>>>>>>>> literally >>>>>>>>>>>> none today= =2E Fiber will NEVER get there=2E And it will get >there, >>>>>>>>>>>> it = will >>>>>>>>>>>> be like 10 years down the road=2E >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>= >> >>>>>>>>>>> This is IHO the wrong approach to take=2E The goal needs = to >be a >>>>>>>>>>> universal FTTH access network (with the exception of = >extreme >>>>>>>>>>> locations, >>>>>>>>>>> no need to pull fiber up to t= he highest Bivouac shelter on >Mt=2E >>>>>>>>>>> Whitney)=2E >>>>>>>>>>> = And f that takes a decade or two, so be it, this is >>>>>>>>>>> infrastruc= ture that >>>>>>>>>>> will keep on helping for many decades once rolled-ou= t=2E >However >>>>>>>>>>> given >>>>>>>>>>> that time frame one should co= nsider work-arounds for the >interim >>>>>>>>>>> period=2E >>>>>>>>>>> I = would have naively thought starlink would qualify for >that >>>>>>>>>>> fr= om a >>>>>>>>>>> technical perspective, but then the FCC documents actuall= y >>>>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>>>> requirements and how they were or we= re not met/promised by >>>>>>>>>>> starlink was >>>>>>>>>>> mostly redact= ed=2E >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> what do you consider 'extreme loca= tions'? how long a run >between >>>>>>>>>> houses is 'too far'? >>>>>>>>>>= >>>>>>>>>> we've seen the failure of commercial fiber monopolies in >citi= es >>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>> housing density of several houses per acre = (and even where >there >>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>> apartment complexes ther= e as well) because it's not >profitable >>>>>>>>>> enough=2E >>>>>>>>>> W= hen you get into areas where it's 'how many acres per >house' the >>>>>>>>>= > cost >>>>>>>>>> of running FTTH gets very high=2E I don't think this is= the >>>>>>>>>> majority of >>>>>>>>>> the population of the US any longe= r (but I don't know for >sure), >>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>> it's very clear= ly the majority of the area of the US=2E And >once >>>>>>>>>> you get >>>>= >>>>>> out of the major metro areas, even getting fiber to every >town or = >>>>>>>>>> village becomes a major undertaking=2E >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I= s running fiber 30 miles to support a village of 700 people >an >>>>>>>>>> = 'extreme location'? let me introduce you to Vermontville MI >>>>>>>>>> ht= tps://en=2Ewikipedia=2Eorg/wiki/Vermontville,_Michigan which >is >>>>>>>>>>= less >>>>>>>>>> than an hours drive from the state capitol=2E >>>>>>>>>>= >>>>>>>>>> David Lang >>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>>>= > >>>>>>>>>> Nnagain mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat= =2Enet >>>>>>>>>> https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/nnagain >>>>>= >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> S= tarlink mailing list >>>>>> Starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >>>>>> htt= ps://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/starlink >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >= >>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Nnagain mailing list >>> = Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >>> https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/lis= tinfo/nnagain >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> Nn= again mailing list >> Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >> https://lists=2E= bufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/nnagain >> > > >--------------------------------= ---------------------------------------- > >_______________________________= ________________ >Nnagain mailing list >Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >= https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/nnagain ------SPPSTW7VLQ3EJT0RPZ3WY8Z3BJJDIV Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Elon Musk ca= n afford to take starlink to markey without the government subsidies=2E It'= s past time to stop subsidizing the richest person on the planet=2E

=
Bob
On Dec 16, 2023, at 1:44 PM, Frantisek Bors= ik via Nnagain <nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet> wrote:
= When someone is speaking with a C-suit of the 25Gbps ISP that still believ= es "in over-provisioning=2E QoS/QoE is for those ISPs which have less bandw= idth than they need" (paraphrasing) - that particular someone knows that th= ere is still SO much work in front of us=2E

=
*trying to bring this thread back on track :-)
So this thread started with FCC denial to Starlink=2E Th= ose 640k locations will not be served in the coming years (1-5 years, for t= hat particular amount of $)=2E Their only hope was to get served by Starlin= k=2E If FCC will decide to give those money to someone else, it's total far= ce=2E Starlink, in this particular case, was their only hope=2E Do you real= ly think that you will see WISPs popping up at those locations? Do you see = FISPs doing it? Or anyone with DOCSIS? No way=2E

This decision was pure political BS - a revenge against Musk= =2E And those people living at these locations in question are the ones tha= t will loose the most in the crossfire=2E It's sad=2E No matter how much me= ntal gymnastics you want to apply here in order to legitimise this post-fac= to=2E No internet? Starlink would bring at least some internet connectivity= to them - I, those people or anyone without a pure political bias in this = case, should not give a flying F that "THiS iS nOt A rEaL 1gbps/500mbps bRo= ADband" or whatever=2E They want and need at least some internet connectivi= ty=2E The only way to deliver it to them in a reasonable timeframe is Starl= ink=2E 

=
=
All the best,
=

Frank

=

=

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

 

=

https://www=2Elinkedin=2Ecom/in/frantisekborsik

S= ignal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 

=

iMessage, mobile: = +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

=

frantisek=2Eborsik@gmail=2Ecom

=
=
=

On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 7:48=E2=80=AFPM Robert McMahon via Nna= gain <nnagain@lists= =2Ebufferbloat=2Enet> wrote:
<= div style=3D"zoom:0%">

And the excuse for not hiring women in the Criminal Division= was they have to deal with all these tough types, and women aren't up to t= hat=2E And I was amazed=2E I said, have you seen the lawyers at legal aid w= ho are representing these tough types? They're all women=2E
People ask me sometimes, when =E2=80= =94 when do you think it will it be enough? When will there be enough women= on the court? And my answer is when there are nine=2E RBG
Bob
On Dec 16, 2023, at 9:30 AM, rjmcmahon via Nnagain <nnagain@lis= ts=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet> wrote: 
The=
 president who ran Harvey Mudd College had to fix their computer 
scienc=
e problem of a 90% to 10% male to female ratio=2E She was asked, 
"What'=
s the goal?" She responded, "It should reflect to population so 
50/50=
=2E" The others said, "Be realistic=2E"

She was and she got it to 50=
/50 where it should be in every technology 
group=2EThough we have more =
improvements to be done=2E

https://hechingerreport=2Eorg/an-unnoticed-resu=
lt-of-the-decline-of-men-in-college-its-harder-for-women-to-get-in/
=

There is now way to fix a problem without getting passed the denial phase=2E This list population, and the LEO worshiping of Musk displayed here by its constituents, are very much white male things=2E Not noticing=
 
this & staying silent on this shows a lack of integrity by the gro=
up=2E My 
judgment=2E

Bob
 to be very clear=
, I am in no way saying that anyone's (let alone
 saying women's) views =
are not desired=2E I think a diversity of views if
 extremely valuable=
=2E
 
 I just get my back up when people say things like 'there need =
to more
 X in charge' (for any value of X that refers to a characteristi=
c that
 someone is born with)
 
 David Lang
 
 On Fri, 15 De=
c 2023, Dave Taht wrote:
 
 This is principally a =
male dominated list, and I in general assume
 that the public debate ove=
r fiber, bandwidth, etc, etc skews heavily
 male also=2E
 
 It is =
a very good set of questions to ask about how the internet
 should be st=
ructured to best meet the needs of both sexes, and how
 that has changed=
 over time, and may change in the future! I hesitate
 to even make one o=
verbroad conclusion! Permanent connectivity and
 messaging seems more im=
portant to women than men, and a phone more
 important than fiber=2E Sec=
urity (tracking and/or protecting kids),
 also=2E It is something I woul=
d rather research than draw premature
 conclusions from=2E
 
 https://www=2Egoogle=2Ecom/search?q=
=3Dhow+do+men+and+women+use+the+internet+differently
 
 On Fri, D=
ec 15, 2023 at 1:42=E2=80=AFPM David Lang via Starlink
 <starlink@lists=
=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet> wrote:
 
 why do you t=
hink telehealth won't work over LEO services?
 
 I've used it persona=
lly=2E
 
 Even if women use telehealth more than men, that doesn't sa=
y that 
 women have any
 particular advantage in moving the bits arou=
nd that make telehealth 
 possible=2E
 
 David Lang
 
 On Fr=
i, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:
 
 Women are the p=
rimary users and providers of telehealth services=2E 
 They are
 usin=
g broadband to care for our population=2E They also run most of 
 the addiction services across our country, whatever the addiction may 
 be=
=2E So
 gender actually matters=2E Ask them as providers=2E Telehealth d=
oesn't 
 work over
 LEO (nor does it matter much for men on boats=2E)=
 Same for distance 
 learning=2E
 
 https://www=2Ehealthcaredive=2Ecom/ne=
ws/women-more-likely-telehealth-patients-providers-covid-19-pandemic/608153=
/
 
 As Washington considers which virtual care flexibilities sho=
uld 
 remain in
 place post-COVID-19, experts are flagging that parin=
g back 
 telehealth access
 and affordability will disproportionately=
 affect women, even as a 
 growing
 share of startups emerge to addre=
ss women=E2=80=99s unique health needs=2E
 
 While women are more lik=
ely than men to visit doctors and consume 
 healthcare
 services in g=
eneral, telehealth seems to be uniquely attractive to 
 women=2E
  Bob
 who exactly do you think is calling for there =
to be no Internet
 access? and what in the world does the sex of individ=
uals have to 
 do
 with shipping bits around?
 
 Starlink (and =
hopefully it's future competitors) provides a way to 
 get
 Internet =
service to everyone without having to run fiber to every
 house=2E
 <=
br> As for the parallels with rural electrification, if that problem 
 w=
ere
 to be faced today, would the right answer be massive public 
 ag=
encies
 to build and run miles of wire from massive central power plants=
? 
 or
 would the right answer be solar + batteries in individual hou=
ses 
 for
 the most rural folks, with small modular reactors to power=
 the 
 larger
 population areas?
 
 Just because there was only=
 one way to achieve a goal in the past
 doesn't mean that approach is th=
e best thing to do today=2E
 
 David Lang
 
 On Fri, 15 Dec 202=
3, rjmcmahon wrote:
 

            Hi All,
       =
     

            

             We're trying to modernize America=
=2E LBJ helped do it for 
            

             electricity
       =
     

             decades ago=2E It's our turn to step up to the plate=
=2E Tele-health 
            

             and
            

       =
      distance learning requires us to do so=2E There is so much to 
      =
      

             follow=2E
            

            

       =
      A reminder what many women went through before LBJ showed up=2E I'm
 =
           

             skeptical a patriarchy under Musk is even clos=
e to capable=2E We 
            

             probably
            
=

             need a woman to lead us, or at least motivate us to do our be=
st 
            

             work for
            

             ou=
r country and to be an example to the world=2E
            

           =
 

             A Hill Country farm wife had to do her chores even if sh=
e was ill 
            

             =E2=80=93 no
            

    =
         matter how ill=2E Because Hill Country women were too poor to affo=
rd 
            

             proper
            

             medi=
cal care they often suffered perineal tears in childbirth=2E 
            <=
br>
             During the
            

             1930s, the federa=
l government sent physicians to examine a 
            

             sa=
mpling of
            

             Hill Country women=2E The doctors f=
ound that, out of 275 women, 158 
            

             had
       =
     

             perineal tears=2E Many of them, the team of gynecolo=
gists reported, 
            

             were
            

      =
       third-degree tears, =E2=80=9Ctears so bad that it is difficult to se=
e how 
            

             they
            

             sta=
nd on their feet=2E=E2=80=9D But they were standing on their feet, and 
   =
         

             doing all
            

             the chor=
es that Hill Country wives had always done =E2=80=93 hauling the 
         =
   

             water,
            

             hauling the wood,=
 canning, washing, ironing, helping with the 
            

            =
 shearing,
            

             the plowing and the picking=2E
   =
         

            

             Because there was no electricit=
y=2E
            

            

             Bob
            

  =
          

             On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, Sebastian=
 Moeller via Starlink wrote:
             

             

          =
   

              Hi Frantisek,
              

     =
         

              

              

        =
       On Dec 15, 2023, at 13:46, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain
            =
   

                <nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet> wrote:
=
               

               

                Thus, technically s=
peaking, one would like the advantages of 
               

            =
    satcom
               

                such as starlink, to be at l=
east 5gbit/s in 10 years time, to 
               

                over=
come
               

                the 'tangled fiber' problem=2E
   =
            

               

                No, not really=2E Star=
link was about to address the issue of 
               

               =
 digital
               

                divide -
               

 =
             

              

               I beg to diffe=
r=2E Starlink is a commercial enterprise with the 
              

     =
          goal to
              

               make a profit by offeri=
ng (usable) internet access essentially
              

               e=
verywhere; it is not as far as I can tell an attempt at 
              
=

               specifically
              

               reducing the=
 digital divide (were often an important factor is 
              

    =
           not
              

               necessarily location but f=
inancial means)=2E
              

             

          =
   

              Every Inernet company " commercial enterprise with th=
e goal to 
             

              make a
             

       =
       profit by offering (usable) internet" don't dismiss a company 
     =
        

              because
             

              of that=
=2E Starlink (and the other Satellite ISPs) all exist to 
             
=

              service
             

              people who can't use=
 traditional wired infrastructure
             

             

     =
        

              

              

               delivering internet to those 640k locations, where the=
re is 
               

                literally
               

  =
              none today=2E Fiber will NEVER get there=2E And it will get t=
here, 
               

                it will
               

    =
            be like 10 years down the road=2E
               

         =
     

              

               This is IHO the wrong =
approach to take=2E The goal needs to be a
              

             =
  universal FTTH access network (with the exception of extreme 
           =
   

               locations,
              

               no need=
 to pull fiber up to the highest Bivouac shelter on Mt=2E 
              
               Whitney)=2E
              

               And f that =
takes a decade or two, so be it, this is 
              

              =
 infrastructure that
              

               will keep on helping=
 for many decades once rolled-out=2E However 
              

          =
     given
              

               that time frame one should con=
sider work-arounds for the interim 
              

               perio=
d=2E
              

               I would have naively thought starlin=
k would qualify for that 
              

               from a
        =
      

               technical perspective, but then the FCC documents=
 actually 
              

               discussion
              

=
               requirements and how they were or were not met/promised by 
=
              

               starlink was
              

         =
      mostly redacted=2E
              

             

    =
         

              what do you consider 'extreme locations'? how l=
ong a run between
             

              houses is 'too far'?
    =
         

             

              we've seen the failure of com=
mercial fiber monopolies in cities 
             

              with
  =
           

              housing density of several houses per acre (a=
nd even where there 
             

              are
             

=
              apartment complexes there as well) because it's not profitabl=
e 
             

              enough=2E
             

            =
  When you get into areas where it's 'how many acres per house' the 
      =
       

              cost
             

              of running F=
TTH gets very high=2E I don't think this is the 
             

        =
      majority of
             

              the population of the US =
any longer (but I don't know for sure), 
             

              bu=
t
             

              it's very clearly the majority of the are=
a of the US=2E And once 
             

              you get
          =
   

              out of the major metro areas, even getting fiber to e=
very town or
             

              village becomes a major undert=
aking=2E
             

             

              Is running fiber=
 30 miles to support a village of 700 people an
             

         =
     'extreme location'? let me introduce you to Vermontville MI
          =
   
https://en=2Ewikipedia=2Eorg/wiki/Vermontville,_Michigan=
 which is 
             

              less
             

     =
         than an hours drive from the state capitol=2E
             

  =
           

              David Lang
             

             
             

              Nnagain mailing list
             
Nnagain=
@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet
             
https://lists=2Ebuffe=
rbloat=2Enet/listinfo/nnagain
             

            
            

 Starlink=
 mailing list
 Starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet
 https://li=
sts=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/starlink
 
 
  

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