From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (bobcat.rjmcmahon.com [45.33.58.123]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CCFC63CB41; Sat, 25 Mar 2023 19:21:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.106] (c-69-181-111-171.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [69.181.111.171]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BB70E1B326; Sat, 25 Mar 2023 16:21:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 bobcat.rjmcmahon.com BB70E1B326 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rjmcmahon.com; s=bobcat; t=1679786500; bh=AAoZ6C/2j4Xh8sJ+qEAiR/Oc+Wf73A0+ErzgP0KcWg0=; h=In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Date:To:CC:From; b=cfQhmwOV4z/OTEY4HQFeAUI/F/tLr+gBJxVhgL7oDqydIdjuIhqVnf0JnotkwiSro f6X2/SqRnQz30n6JLQFOdFqKTHOGZlTg0DHBv5cs/9h6pZSc7ufwqnzadAoHFTuHeY 4/NRV/pU1fASjk6MLMcWEBcDOAuHjJ6FkbvjmzsM= In-Reply-To: References: <1d6c10c9a692bb3f2869fb1b40fa449a@rjmcmahon.com> <569691b3e7dfc57bbf98c4fc168fc6cf@rjmcmahon.com> <2885829.1679221616@dyas> <20230321001019.GA4531@sunf68.rd.bbc.co.uk> <4295238B-FA57-49B6-B57B-78FFB2603B90@gmx.de> <8301258b8fffa18bd14279bff043dd03@rjmcmahon.com> <43bcbc338aecb44a1bef49489ab6f9c8@rjmcmahon.com> <60e70b637df76234639780ab08f25d82@rjmcmahon.com> <9edd011a1a6615470b34e0837896a15f@rjmcmahon.com> X-Referenced-Uid: 00010125567702d5 Thread-Topic: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat User-Agent: Android X-Is-Generated-Message-Id: true MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----MJ531TEU8F8XX07X9JBJ4OLP3QR6S3" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Robert McMahon Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2023 16:21:40 -0700 To: dan CC: Bruce Perens ,Sebastian Moeller , Dave Taht via Starlink , Frantisek Borsik , libreqos ,Rpm , bloat Message-ID: <0551d5fe-e1be-48c8-be36-c4800a12e5de@rjmcmahon.com> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2023 23:21:42 -0000 ------MJ531TEU8F8XX07X9JBJ4OLP3QR6S3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Read the arguments on potable public water supplies=2E You're missing the f= orest per the trees=2E Also, Comcast offers full wifi services=2E The dmar= c at the property line and right of way is artificial=2E The economics is= a 100gb/s sfp=2E Not 2g=C2=A0 or 6g=2E I'm asking for a roof of shingles v= s a thatch roof=2E Many may laugh until they realize we're talking about re= al life issues=2E A 100Gb/s link drives queues to empty=2E Compute moves to= speed of causality=2E That's the best we can do today and it'll be the bes= t done in 50 or 100 years from now, assuming the optics are pluggable=2E W= e need to stop conflating capacity with latency=2E Doing so is a basic engi= neering flaw=2E The fiber has basically infinite capacity=2E=C2=A0 Where i= t ends, where it starts and who gets to decide on the optics is a non trivi= al problem=2E And that choice matters=2E But hey, many men think it's their= womb too, which is no longer funny=2E I want 6 Gbs optics=2E You laugh=2E= Comcast says I can't have it=2E Why am I not in charge of this choice? Bo= b On Mar 25, 2023, 3:50 PM, at 3:50 PM, dan wrote= : >I'm not quite following on this=2E It's really not comcast's >responsib= ility >to do maintenance on old cables etc=2E Once installed, those are >f= ixtures >and the responsibility of the building owner=2E Comcast etc are= only >pulling wire in to enable their primary business of selling voice, t= v, >and >data=2E All of these other pieces are clearly the responsibility = of the >property owner to install=2E Trying to put this sort of thing on a= n ISP >would dramatically increase the cost of delivering services=2E > >I = read the chat log and I would have closed it too=2E An HOA is a >business = >in legal terms=2E for profit or non-profit, but still a business=2E The >= cost >to bring all products to every home and business would dramatically >= increase the average cost of services=2E The CSR offered a 2Gbit service >= and >you replied that you want the lower latencies of the 6Gbit service for= >your >fire alarm? Firstly, why would the 2Gbit have lower latency than t= he >6Gbit, and secondly how much data do you think a fire alarm uses? As >= the >CSR I would be telling jokes about you with my co-workers=2E I'm not = >meaning >to be too antagonistic here, but this is a bit over the top don't= you >think? You're getting jostled around because you are demanding a >se= rvice >they don't offer at the address=2E You could have taken the 2Gbit p= lan >offer >and been installed in a few days and still had a product that i= s >literally >1000x more than your fire circuit needs=2E The moment you st= arted in on >the >Boston fire I'd have been done=2E Irrelevant and sensat= ionalist=2E Fire >alarms in all 50 states require either a hard wired tele= phone line or a >redundant data link (ISP+Cell for example) so the who 6Gbi= t to prevent >everyone from dying line is so over the top it made me switch= teams >mid-read=2E > >"I dont have what you are asking for" / "connect me = to someone who >does" is >the "Karen: I want to talk to your manager" equiv= alent for an ISP's CSR >to >hear=2E > >I could continue with how absurd a l= ot of what has been said is but I >don't >want kicked out of the group for = being unfriendly so I'll let it be=2E > >On Sat, Mar 25, 2023 at 4:04=E2=80= =AFPM Robert McMahon > >wrote: > >> Hi Bruce, >>= >> I think you may be the right guy to solve this=2E I too remember the >d= ays of >> dry wire sold by the RBOCs=2E >> >> I found a structured wire fir= e alarm install to cost $100k for our >> building or $20k per unit=2E The l= abor and materials is about $25k=2E The >other >> $75k is liability related= costs, similar to a bike helmet, $10 in >parts, >> $40 in insurance=2E So = it's not labor nor equipment that drives the >expenses=2E >> My opinion is = poor people shouldn't have to pay for insurance to >insurance >> companies,= companies that figure figures for a living=2E >> >> A digression: I could = do an LMR 600 passive cable system looped with >> Wilkinson power dividers,= patch antennas and nests to protect the >egress >> escape ladder for about= $10 to $15K=2E Don't need an SLA=2E We've >basically >> priced protecting = human lives to only rich people=2E >> >> We need to use technology and our = cleverness to fix this version of >> "expense bloat=2E" >> >> Look at Bosto= n public water for an example=2E Way too expensive to pipe >> water in from= 15 miles away in the early days=2E So people who did it >claimed >> alcoho= lism (and that "immorality") would be eliminated by providing >clean >> and= pure potable public water=2E Alcholics would choose pathogen free >water = >> over spirits=2E Rich people got enough water for themselves and even >fo= r >> their private fountains so society stopped this initiative=2E >> >> It= was a motivated doctor who taught rich people that their health >was >> ti= ed to public health=2E And public health was being impacted because >> path= ogens being spread to poor people who didn't get potable public >water >> w= ould by addressed by ubiquitous potable water supplies=2E The fire >chief w= as >> put in charge=2E See Ties That Bind >> >> https://upittpress=2Eorg/bo= oks/9780822961475/ >> >> Now, in the U=2ES, most do get potable water even = to flush a toilet=2E >It's >> taken for granted=2E >> >> I think it's on us= to do similar for digital communication networks=2E >> They're needed far = beyond entertainment, and we need to get public >safety >> elements engaged= too=2E >> >> Bob >> On Mar 25, 2023, at 2:08 PM, Bruce Perens wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Mar 25, 2023 at 1:44=E2=80=AFPM rjm= cmahon via Starlink < >>> starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet> wrote: >>> >>= >> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital >>>> commu= nications infrastructure as life support critical=2E >>> >>> >>> When I was= younger there was a standard way to do this=2E Fire alarms >had a >>> dedi= cated pair directly to the fire department or a local alarm >station=2E >>>= This wasn't dial-tone, it was a DC pair that would drop a trouble >>> noti= fication if DC was interrupted, and I think it would reverse >polarity >>> = to indicate alarm=2E If DC was interrupted, that would also turn off >the >= >> boiler in the building=2E >>> >>> Today my home fire alarms are wireless= and have cellular back to >their >>> main Comcast connection, and detect C= O, smoke, and temperature=2E This >would >>> not meet insurance requirement= s for a commercial building, they >still have >>> all of the sensors wired,= with cellular backup=2E >>> >>> I don't think you are considering what lif= e-support-critical digital >>> communications would really cost=2E Start wi= th metal conduit and >>> fire-resistant wiring throughout the structure=2E = Provide redundant >power for >>> *every* fan-out box (we just had a 24-hour= power interruption here >due >>> to storms)=2E AT&T provides 4 hour power = for "Lightspeed" tombstone >boxes >>> that fan out telephone, beyond that a= truck has to drive out and >plug in a >>> generator, or you are out of luc= k if it's a wide-are outage like we >just >>> had=2E Wire areas in a redund= ant loop rather than a tree=2E Supervise >every >>> home so that interrupti= ons are serviced automatically=2E Provide a >4-hour >>> SLA=2E >>> >>> The = phone company used to do what you are asking for=2E The high >prices >>> th= is required are the main reason that everyone has jumped off of >using the = >>> legacy telco for telephony=2E >>> >> ------MJ531TEU8F8XX07X9JBJ4OLP3QR6S3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Read the arg= uments on potable public water supplies=2E You're missing the forest per th= e trees=2E

Also, Comcast offers full wifi s= ervices=2E The dmarc at the property line and right of way is artificial=2E=

The economics is a 100gb/s sfp=2E Not 2g= =C2=A0 or 6g=2E I'm asking for a roof of shingles vs a thatch roof=2E Many = may laugh until they realize we're talking about real life issues=2E A 100G= b/s link drives queues to empty=2E Compute moves to speed of causality=2E T= hat's the best we can do today and it'll be the best done in 50 or 100 year= s from now, assuming the optics are pluggable=2E

We need to stop conflating capacity with la= tency=2E Doing so is a basic engineering flaw=2E

The fiber has basically infinite capacity=2E=C2=A0 Where it ends, whe= re it starts and who gets to decide on the optics is a non trivial problem= =2E And that choice matters=2E But hey, many men think it's their womb too,= which is no longer funny=2E

I want 6 Gbs o= ptics=2E You laugh=2E Comcast says I can't have it=2E Why am I not in charg= e of this choice?

Bob
On Mar 25, 2023, at 3:50 PM, dan <dandenson@gmail=2Ecom> wrote:=
I'm not quite following on this=2E  It's really not comcast's res= ponsibility to do maintenance on old cables etc=2E  Once installed, th= ose are fixtures and the responsibility of the building owner=2E  &nbs= p; Comcast etc are only pulling wire in to enable their primary business of= selling voice, tv, and data=2E  All of these other pieces are clearly= the responsibility of the property owner to install=2E  Trying to put= this sort of thing on an ISP would dramatically increase the cost of deliv= ering services=2E

I read the chat log and I would have closed it= too=2E  An HOA is a business in legal terms=2E for profit or non-prof= it, but still a business=2E  The cost to bring all products to every h= ome and business would dramatically increase the average cost of services= =2E  The CSR offered a 2Gbit service and you replied that you want the= lower latencies of the 6Gbit service for your fire alarm?  Firstly, w= hy would the 2Gbit have lower latency than the 6Gbit, and secondly how much= data do you think a fire alarm uses?  As the CSR I would be telling j= okes about you with my co-workers=2E  I'm not meaning to be too antago= nistic here, but this is a bit over the top don't you think?  You're g= etting jostled around because you are demanding a service they don't offer = at the address=2E  You could have taken the 2Gbit plan offer and been = installed in a few days and still had a product that is literally 1000x mor= e than your fire circuit needs=2E  The moment you started in on the Bo= ston fire I'd have been done=2E   Irrelevant and sensationalist= =2E  Fire alarms in all 50 states require either a hard wired telephon= e line or a redundant data link (ISP+Cell for example) so the who 6Gbit to = prevent everyone from dying line is so over the top it made me switch teams= mid-read=2E

"I dont have what you are asking for" / "connect me= to someone who does" is the "Karen: I want to talk to your manager" equiva= lent for an ISP's CSR to hear=2E

I could continue with how absur= d a lot of what has been said is but I don't want kicked out of the group f= or being unfriendly so I'll let it be=2E

On Sat, Mar 25, 2023 at 4:0= 4=E2=80=AFPM Robert McMahon < rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon=2Ecom> wrote:
Hi Bruce,

I think you may be the right guy to solve this=2E I too remember the= days of dry wire sold by the RBOCs=2E

I found a structured wire fire alarm install to cost $10= 0k for our building or $20k per unit=2E The labor and materials is about $2= 5k=2E The other $75k is liability related costs, similar to a bike helmet, = $10 in parts, $40 in insurance=2E So it's not labor nor equipment that driv= es the expenses=2E My opinion is poor people shouldn't have to pay for insu= rance to insurance companies, companies that figure figures for a living=2E=

A digression: I cou= ld do an LMR 600 passive cable system looped with Wilkinson power dividers,= patch antennas and nests to protect the egress escape ladder for about $10= to $15K=2E Don't need an SLA=2E We've basically priced protecting human li= ves to only rich people=2E

We need to use technology and our cleverness to fix this version of= "expense bloat=2E"

= Look at Boston public water for an example=2E Way too expensive to pipe wat= er in from 15 miles away in the early days=2E So people who did it claimed = alcoholism (and that "immorality") would be eliminated by providing clean a= nd pure potable public water=2E  Alcholics would choose pathogen free = water over spirits=2E Rich people got enough water for themselves and even = for their private fountains so society stopped this initiative=2E
=
It was a motivated doctor who= taught rich people that their health was tied to public health=2E And publ= ic health was being impacted because pathogens being spread to poor people = who didn't get potable public water would by addressed by ubiquitous potabl= e water supplies=2E The fire chief was put in charge=2E See Ties That Bind =

Now, in the U=2ES, most do get potable water even to flush a to= ilet=2E It's taken for granted=2E

I think it's on us to do similar for digital communication n= etworks=2E They're needed far beyond entertainment, and we need to get publ= ic safety elements engaged too=2E

Bob
On Mar 25,= 2023, at 2:08 PM, Bruce Perens < bruce@perens=2Ecom> wrote:


On Sat, = Mar 25, 2023 at 1:44=E2=80=AFPM rjmcmahon via Starlink < starlink@= lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet> wrote:
The point of the thread = is that we still do not treat digital communications infrastructure as life= support critical=2E

=
When I was younger there was a standard w= ay to do this=2E Fire alarms had a dedicated pair directly to the fire depa= rtment or a local alarm station=2E This wasn't dial-tone, it was a DC pair = that would drop a trouble notification if DC was interrupted, and I think i= t would reverse polarity to indicate alarm=2E If DC was interrupted, that w= ould also turn off the boiler in the building=2E
=

= Today my home fire alarms are wireless and have cellular back to their = main Comcast connection, and detect CO, smoke, and temperature=2E This woul= d not meet insurance requirements for a commercial building, they stil= l have all of the sensors wired, with cellular backup=2E
=

I don't thin= k you are considering what life-support-critical digital communications wou= ld really cost=2E Start with metal conduit and fire-resistant wiring throug= hout the structure=2E Provide redundant power for every fan= -out box (we just had a 24-hour power interruption here due to storms)=2E A= T&T provides 4 hour power for "Lightspeed" tombstone boxes that fan out= telephone, beyond that a truck has to drive out and plug in a generator, o= r you are out of luck if it's a wide-are outage like we just had=2E Wire ar= eas in a redundant loop rather than a tree=2E Supervise every home so that = interruptions are serviced automatically=2E Provide a 4-hour SLA=2E =

T= he phone company used to do what you are asking for=2E The high prices this= required are the main reason that everyone has jumped off of using the leg= acy telco for telephony=2E
=
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