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From: rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
Cc: dan <dandenson@gmail.com>, Rpm <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net>,
	libreqos <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net>,
	Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>,
	bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: [Starlink] On metrics
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2023 14:00:35 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <0649f7dc2b6e7ca1634b675dc6f9d953@rjmcmahon.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <2885829.1679221616@dyas>

Hi All,

It seems getting the metrics right is critical. Our industry can't be 
reporting things that mislead or misassign blame. The medical community 
doesn't treat people for cancer without having a high degree they've 
gotten the diagnostics correct as an example.

An initial metric, per this group, would be geared towards 
responsiveness or the speed of causality. Here, we may need to include 
linear distance, the power required to achieve a responsiveness and to 
take account of Pareto efficiencies, where one device's better 
responsiveness can't make another's worse.

An example per a possible FiWi new & comprehensive metric: A rating 
could be something like 10K responses per second at 1Km terrestrial 
(fiber) cable / 6m radius free space range / 5W total / 0-impact to 
others. If consumers can learn to read nutrition labels they can also 
learn to read these.

Maybe a device produces a scan code qr based upon its e3e measurement 
and the scan code qr loads a page with human interpretable analysis? 
Similar to how we now pull up menus on our mobile phones listing the 
food items and the nutrition information that's available to seat at a 
table. Then, in a perfect world, there is a rating per each link hop or 
better, network jurisdiction. Each jurisdiction could decide if they 
want to participate or not, similar to connecting up an autonomous 
system or not. I think measurements of network jurisdictions without 
prior agreements are unfair. The lack of measurement capability is 
likely enough pressure needed to motivate actions.

Bob

PS. As a side note, and a shameless plug, iperf 2 now supports 
bounceback and a big issue has been clock sync for one way delays (OWD.) 
Per a comment from Jean Tourrhiles 
https://sourceforge.net/p/iperf2/tickets/242/ I added some unsync 
detections in the bounceback measurements. Contact me directly if your 
engineering team needs more information on iperf 2.

  reply	other threads:[~2023-03-19 21:00 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 168+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
     [not found] <mailman.2651.1672779463.1281.starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
2023-01-03 22:58 ` [Starlink] Researchers Seeking Probe Volunteers in USA David P. Reed
2023-01-09 14:44   ` Livingood, Jason
2023-01-09 15:26     ` Dave Taht
2023-01-09 17:00       ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-01-09 17:04       ` [Starlink] [LibreQoS] " Jeremy Austin
2023-01-09 18:33         ` Dave Taht
2023-01-09 19:06           ` David Collier-Brown
2023-01-09 18:54       ` [Starlink] [EXTERNAL] " Livingood, Jason
2023-01-09 19:19         ` [Starlink] [Rpm] " rjmcmahon
2023-01-09 19:56           ` [Starlink] [LibreQoS] " dan
2023-01-09 21:00             ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-13 10:02             ` [Starlink] [Rpm] [LibreQoS] " Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 15:08               ` Jeremy Austin
2023-03-13 15:50                 ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 16:06                   ` [Starlink] [Bloat] " Dave Taht
2023-03-13 16:19                     ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 16:12                   ` [Starlink] " dan
2023-03-13 16:36                     ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 17:26                       ` dan
2023-03-13 17:37                         ` Jeremy Austin
2023-03-13 18:34                           ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 18:14                         ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 18:42                           ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-13 18:51                             ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 19:32                               ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-13 20:00                                 ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 20:28                                   ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-14  4:27                                     ` [Starlink] On FiWi rjmcmahon
2023-03-14 11:10                                       ` Mike Puchol
2023-03-14 16:54                                         ` [Starlink] [Rpm] " Robert McMahon
2023-03-14 17:06                                           ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-14 17:11                                             ` [Starlink] [Bloat] " Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-14 17:35                                               ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-14 17:54                                                 ` [Starlink] [LibreQoS] " dan
2023-03-14 18:14                                                   ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-14 19:18                                                     ` dan
2023-03-14 19:30                                                       ` [Starlink] [Bloat] [LibreQoS] " Dave Taht
2023-03-14 20:06                                                         ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-14 19:30                                                       ` [Starlink] [LibreQoS] [Bloat] " rjmcmahon
2023-03-14 23:30                                                         ` Bruce Perens
2023-03-15  0:11                                                           ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-15  5:20                                                             ` Bruce Perens
     [not found]                                                               ` <CALQXh-PUgix7ApkTi5W8TMKVZfE4fyNk4WeiocZ6QU6R-m7naA@mail.gmail.com>
2023-03-15 17:05                                                                 ` [Starlink] [Rpm] [LibreQoS] [Bloat] " Bruce Perens
2023-03-15 17:44                                                                   ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-15 19:22                                                                   ` [Starlink] [Bloat] [Rpm] [LibreQoS] " David Lang
2023-03-15 17:32                                                               ` [Starlink] [LibreQoS] [Bloat] [Rpm] " rjmcmahon
2023-03-15 17:42                                                                 ` dan
2023-03-15 18:03                                                                   ` Mike Puchol
2023-03-15 19:33                                                                   ` [Starlink] [Bloat] [LibreQoS] " David Lang
2023-03-15 19:39                                                                     ` [Starlink] [Rpm] [Bloat] [LibreQoS] " Dave Taht
2023-03-15 21:52                                                                       ` David Lang
2023-03-15 22:04                                                                         ` Dave Taht
2023-03-15 22:08                                                                           ` dan
2023-03-15 17:43                                                                 ` [Starlink] [Bloat] [LibreQoS] [Rpm] " Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-15 17:49                                                                   ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-15 17:53                                                                     ` [Starlink] [Rpm] [Bloat] [LibreQoS] " Dave Taht
2023-03-15 17:59                                                                       ` dan
2023-03-15 19:39                                                                       ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-17 16:38                                         ` [Starlink] [Rpm] " Dave Taht
2023-03-17 18:21                                           ` Mike Puchol
2023-03-17 19:01                                           ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-17 19:19                                             ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-17 20:37                                               ` Bruce Perens
2023-03-17 20:57                                                 ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-17 22:50                                                   ` Bruce Perens
2023-03-18 18:18                                                     ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-18 19:57                                                       ` [Starlink] [LibreQoS] " dan
2023-03-18 20:40                                                         ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-19 10:26                                                           ` Michael Richardson
2023-03-19 21:00                                                             ` rjmcmahon [this message]
2023-03-20  0:26                                                               ` [Starlink] On metrics dan
2023-03-20  3:03                                                                 ` David Lang
     [not found]                                                             ` <CAJUtOOgC8O2jvT7eZ0O8nU8kCPOeCgVPTBNKaA3ZqLpJf4obJw@mail.gmail.com>
2023-03-20 21:28                                                               ` [Starlink] [Rpm] [LibreQoS] On FiWi dan
     [not found]                                                                 ` <CAJUtOOhPsiC=9SM3rUUxWuh4euLbDxVqcrM6hioDykZaWYfy6Q@mail.gmail.com>
2023-03-20 22:02                                                                   ` [Starlink] On FiWi power envelope rjmcmahon
2023-03-20 23:47                                                                     ` Bruce Perens
2023-03-21  0:10                                                                 ` [Starlink] [Rpm] [LibreQoS] On FiWi Brandon Butterworth
     [not found]                                                                   ` <CAJUtOOhinMu4Mv9EW-PB7ef9EHWL3inpeABUqFt0UDAw47MixA@mail.gmail.com>
2023-03-21 11:26                                                                     ` [Starlink] Annoyed at 5/1 Mbps Rich Brown
2023-03-21 12:29                                                                     ` [Starlink] [Rpm] [LibreQoS] On FiWi Brandon Butterworth
2023-03-21 12:30                                                                   ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-21 17:42                                                                     ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-21 18:08                                                                       ` rjmcmahon
     [not found]                                                                         ` <CAJUtOOiMk+PBK2ZRFsZA8EFEgqfHY3Zpw9=kAkJZpePx9OzeMw@mail.gmail.com>
2023-03-21 19:58                                                                           ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-21 20:06                                                                             ` [Starlink] [Bloat] " David Lang
2023-03-25 19:39                                                                             ` [Starlink] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat rjmcmahon
2023-03-25 20:09                                                                               ` Bruce Perens
2023-03-25 20:47                                                                                 ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-25 20:15                                                                               ` [Starlink] [Bloat] " Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-25 20:43                                                                                 ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-25 21:08                                                                                   ` Bruce Perens
2023-03-25 22:04                                                                                     ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-25 22:50                                                                                       ` dan
2023-03-25 23:21                                                                                         ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-25 23:35                                                                                           ` David Lang
2023-03-26  0:04                                                                                             ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-26  0:07                                                                                               ` Nathan Owens
2023-03-26  0:50                                                                                                 ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-26  8:45                                                                                                 ` Livingood, Jason
2023-03-26 18:54                                                                                                   ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-26  0:28                                                                                               ` David Lang
2023-03-26  0:57                                                                                                 ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-25 22:57                                                                                       ` Bruce Perens
2023-03-25 23:33                                                                                         ` David Lang
2023-03-25 23:38                                                                                         ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-25 23:20                                                                                       ` David Lang
2023-03-26 18:29                                                                                         ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-26 10:34                                                                                   ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-26 18:12                                                                                     ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-26 20:57                                                                                     ` David Lang
2023-03-26 21:11                                                                                       ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-26 21:26                                                                                         ` David Lang
2023-03-28 17:06                                                                                         ` Larry Press
2023-03-28 17:47                                                                                           ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-28 18:11                                                                                             ` Frantisek Borsik
2023-03-28 18:46                                                                                               ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-28 20:37                                                                                                 ` David Lang
2023-03-28 21:31                                                                                                   ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-28 22:18                                                                                                     ` dan
2023-03-28 22:42                                                                                                       ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-29  8:28                                                                                             ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-29 12:27                                                                                               ` Dave Collier-Brown
2023-03-29 13:22                                                                                                 ` Doc Searls
2023-03-29 13:40                                                                                                   ` [Starlink] Enabling a production model Dave Taht
2023-03-29 14:54                                                                                                     ` [Starlink] [LibreQoS] " dan
2023-03-29 16:53                                                                                                       ` Jeremy Austin
2023-03-29 18:33                                                                                                         ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-29 17:13                                                                                                       ` [Starlink] [Bloat] " David Lang
2023-03-29 17:34                                                                                                         ` dan
2023-03-29 20:03                                                                                                           ` David Lang
2023-04-02 12:00                                                                                                           ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-29 17:46                                                                                                         ` Rich Brown
2023-03-29 19:02                                                                                                           ` tom
2023-03-29 19:08                                                                                                             ` Dave Taht
2023-03-29 19:31                                                                                                               ` tom
2023-03-29 19:11                                                                                                           ` Dave Collier-Brown
2023-04-02 11:39                                                                                                             ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-29 13:46                                                                                               ` [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat Frantisek Borsik
2023-03-29 14:57                                                                                                 ` [Starlink] [LibreQoS] " Dave Taht
2023-03-29 19:23                                                                                                   ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-29 19:02                                                                                               ` [Starlink] " rjmcmahon
2023-03-29 19:37                                                                                                 ` dan
2023-03-25 20:27                                                                               ` [Starlink] " rjmcmahon
2023-03-17 23:15                                             ` [Starlink] [Bloat] [Rpm] On FiWi David Lang
2023-03-14 18:05                                       ` [Starlink] " Steve Stroh
2023-03-13 19:33                           ` [Starlink] [Rpm] [LibreQoS] [EXTERNAL] Re: Researchers Seeking Probe Volunteers in USA dan
2023-03-13 19:52                             ` Jeremy Austin
2023-03-13 21:00                               ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 21:27                                 ` dan
2023-03-14  9:11                                   ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 20:45                             ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 21:02                               ` [Starlink] When do you drop? Always! Dave Taht
2023-03-13 21:42                                 ` Ulrich Speidel
2023-03-13 16:04                 ` [Starlink] UnderBloat on fiber and wisps Dave Taht
2023-03-13 16:09                   ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 16:35                     ` Mike Puchol
2023-01-09 20:49         ` [Starlink] [EXTERNAL] Re: Researchers Seeking Probe Volunteers in USA Dave Taht
2023-01-09 19:13       ` [Starlink] [Rpm] " rjmcmahon
2023-01-09 19:47         ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-01-11 18:32           ` Rodney W. Grimes
2023-01-11 20:01             ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-01-11 20:09             ` rjmcmahon
2023-01-12  8:14               ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-01-12 17:49                 ` Robert McMahon
2023-01-09 20:20         ` Dave Taht
2023-01-09 20:46           ` rjmcmahon
2023-01-09 20:59             ` Dave Taht
2023-01-09 21:06               ` rjmcmahon
2023-01-09 21:18                 ` rjmcmahon
2023-01-10 17:36         ` David P. Reed

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