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boundary="Apple-Mail=_DD620BE2-B3CA-4516-8FF9-5B253CA8899A"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: alum.mit.edu X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: CO6PR12MB5427.namprd12.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: e2170734-63f2-40b4-7712-08da9ff990c1 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 26 Sep 2022 19:59:04.9992 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: T9IlwuPmY3MsY0xnt+UX15cQZ90Ij2Wdx0C8mp/HdCuiZ/SVxhDzuzkpUKgXP1xWkbwJJ8Fgk0zMcYyRyTp3DMe19oWRtOYwv2poTKAfQE4= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: IA0PR12MB7774 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 28 Sep 2022 23:04:31 -0400 Subject: Re: [Starlink] It's still the starlink latency... X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2022 19:59:09 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_DD620BE2-B3CA-4516-8FF9-5B253CA8899A Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_10ADF345-F4DE-4E5B-8EE1-C9C6BFA58989" --Apple-Mail=_10ADF345-F4DE-4E5B-8EE1-C9C6BFA58989 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 The key issue is most people don=E2=80=99t understand why latency = matters. They don=E2=80=99t see it or feel it=E2=80=99s impact. First, we have to help people see the symptoms of latency and how it = impacts something they care about. - gamers care but most people may think it is frivolous. - musicians care but that is mostly for a hobby. - business should care because of productivity but they don=E2=80=99t = know how to =E2=80=9Csee=E2=80=9D the impact. Second, there needs to be a =E2=80=9COMG, I have been seeing the action = of latency all this time and never knew it! I was being shafted.=E2=80=9D = Once you have this awakening, you can get all the press you want for = free. Most of the time when business apps are developed, =E2=80=9Cwe=E2=80=9D = hide the impact of poor performance (aka latency) or they hide from the = discussion because the developers don=E2=80=99t have a way to fix the = latency. Maybe businesses don=E2=80=99t care because any employees = affected are just considered poor performers. (In bad economic times, = the poor performers are just laid off.) For employees, if they happen to = be at a location with bad latency, they don=E2=80=99t know that latency = is hurting them. Unfair but most people don=E2=80=99t know the issue is = latency. Talking and explaining why latency is bad is not as effective as showing = why latency is bad. Showing has to be with something that has a person = impact. Gene ----------------------------------- Eugene Chang eugene.chang@alum.mit.edu +1-781-799-0233 (in Honolulu) > On Sep 26, 2022, at 6:32 AM, Bruce Perens via Starlink = wrote: >=20 > If you want to get attention, you can get it for free. I can place = articles with various press if there is something interesting to say. = Did this all through the evangelism of Open Source. All we need to do is = write, sign, and publish a statement. What they actually write is less = relevant if they publish a link to our statement. >=20 > Right now I am concerned that the Starlink latency and jitter is going = to be a problem even for remote controlling my ham station. The US = Military is interested in doing much more, which they have demonstrated, = but I don't see happening at scale without some technical work on the = network. Being able to say this isn't ready for the government's = application would be an attention-getter. >=20 > Thanks >=20 > Bruce >=20 > On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 9:21 AM Dave Taht via Starlink = > = wrote: > These days, if you want attention, you gotta buy it. A 50k half page > ad in the wapo or NYT riffing off of It's the latency, Stupid!", > signed by the kinds of luminaries we got for the fcc wifi fight, would > go a long way towards shifting the tide. >=20 > On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 8:29 AM Dave Taht > wrote: > > > > On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 8:20 AM Livingood, Jason > > > = wrote: > > > > > > The awareness & understanding of latency & impact on QoE is nearly = unknown among reporters. IMO maybe there should be some kind of = background briefings for reporters - maybe like a simple YouTube video = explainer that is short & high level & visual? Otherwise reporters will = just continue to focus on what they know... > > > > That's a great idea. I have visions of crashing the washington > > correspondents dinner, but perhaps > > there is some set of gatherings journalists regularly attend? > > > > > > > > =EF=BB=BFOn 9/21/22, 14:35, "Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht via = Starlink" on behalf of = starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > = wrote: > > > > > > I still find it remarkable that reporters are still missing = the > > > meaning of the huge latencies for starlink, under load. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > FQ World Domination pending: = https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/ = > > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > FQ World Domination pending: = https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/ = > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink = >=20 >=20 > -- > Bruce Perens K6BP > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink --Apple-Mail=_10ADF345-F4DE-4E5B-8EE1-C9C6BFA58989 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 The = key issue is most people don=E2=80=99t understand why latency matters. = They don=E2=80=99t see it or feel it=E2=80=99s impact. 

First, we have to help = people see the symptoms of latency and how it impacts something they = care about.
- gamers care but most people may think = it is frivolous.
- musicians care but that is = mostly for a hobby.
- business should care because = of productivity but they don=E2=80=99t know how to =E2=80=9Csee=E2=80=9D = the impact.

Second, there needs to be a =E2=80=9COMG, I have been seeing = the action of latency all this time and never knew it! I was being = shafted.=E2=80=9D Once you have this awakening, you can get all the = press you want for free.

Most of the time when business apps are developed, =E2=80=9Cwe=E2= =80=9D hide the impact of poor performance (aka latency) or they hide = from the discussion because the developers don=E2=80=99t have a way to = fix the latency. Maybe businesses don=E2=80=99t care because any = employees affected are just considered poor performers. (In bad economic = times, the poor performers are just laid off.) For employees, if they = happen to be at a location with bad latency, they don=E2=80=99t know = that latency is hurting them. Unfair but most people don=E2=80=99t know = the issue is latency. 

Talking and explaining why latency is bad is not as = effective as showing why latency is bad. Showing has to be with = something that has a person impact. 

Gene
-----------------------------------
Eugene Chang
eugene.chang@alum.mit.edu
+1-781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)





On Sep 26, 2022, at 6:32 AM, Bruce Perens via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

If you want to get attention, you = can get it for free. I can place articles with various press if there is = something interesting to say. Did this all through the evangelism of = Open Source. All we need to do is write, sign, and publish a statement. = What they actually write is less relevant if they publish a link to our = statement.

Right now = I am concerned that the Starlink latency and jitter is going to be a = problem even for remote controlling my ham station. The US Military is = interested in doing much more, which they have demonstrated, but I don't = see happening at scale without some technical work on = the network. Being able to say this isn't ready for the government's = application would be an attention-getter.

    Thanks

    = Bruce

On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 9:21 AM Dave = Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
These days, if you want attention, = you gotta buy it. A 50k half page
ad in the wapo or NYT riffing off of It's the latency, Stupid!",
signed by the kinds of luminaries we got for the fcc wifi fight, = would
go a long way towards shifting the tide.

On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 8:29 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 8:20 AM Livingood, Jason
> <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com> wrote:
> >
> > The awareness & understanding of latency & impact on = QoE is nearly unknown among reporters. IMO maybe there should be some = kind of background briefings for reporters - maybe like a simple YouTube = video explainer that is short & high level & visual? Otherwise = reporters will just continue to focus on what they know...
>
> That's a great idea. I have visions of crashing the washington
> correspondents dinner, but perhaps
> there is some set of gatherings journalists regularly attend?
>
> >
> > =EF=BB=BFOn 9/21/22, 14:35, "Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht = via Starlink" <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net on behalf of starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >
> >     I still find it remarkable that reporters = are still missing the
> >     meaning of the huge latencies for starlink, = under load.
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/
> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC



--
FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/
Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink


--
Bruce Perens K6BP
_______________________________________________
Starlink = mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

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