From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3FCCA3CB41; Wed, 29 Mar 2023 04:28:25 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1680078494; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=004IdUDitHs8mGriKXBFVS7QnUNpA+pNHQBUv35/OJQ=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=ohKS3pkSepUL/WSh2Gz2aoynSmlgtsygXZonzf7XuX9RlHMy3WeCktbT+Wn507L58 knU5dFzVHklGcg4+HhJ/MpLCVltu/E/XAhGF2UJOm2KDl4PDcrJk8+D8e/TophB+9z QnUTERRbSyPHCDcZ9TIKvA1PMC525oGUHuaf86USRXQB2mV2R40ux/lVylo3eR9heC cbJIjnOTQ+d2CeL0F/bG8DUtvJvb6czxXBSwvYQ0IMOf8gInYxbP/5GYkkuzSnhZ6c Ys4OKDnMeMsaaStv283Z1LF/Y9xf4TSJxmAAfKTrL7VqBBTQ/Sg0i19ewEJzvTL2QH aLHsqG2myJB4Q== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MYNJg-1ptxqG1xAY-00VT0r; Wed, 29 Mar 2023 10:28:14 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.2\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: <27aea5070eeb1b1535f3e75489295feb@rjmcmahon.com> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 10:28:12 +0200 Cc: Larry Press , David Lang , dan , Frantisek Borsik , libreqos , Dave Taht via Starlink , bloat Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <08526EAC-7EA3-4BFA-A231-B2935E09C8AC@gmx.de> References: <1d6c10c9a692bb3f2869fb1b40fa449a@rjmcmahon.com> <569691b3e7dfc57bbf98c4fc168fc6cf@rjmcmahon.com> <2885829.1679221616@dyas> <20230321001019.GA4531@sunf68.rd.bbc.co.uk> <4295238B-FA57-49B6-B57B-78FFB2603B90@gmx.de> <8301258b8fffa18bd14279bff043dd03@rjmcmahon.com> <43bcbc338aecb44a1bef49489ab6f9c8@rjmcmahon.com> <60e70b637df76234639780ab08f25d82@rjmcmahon.com> <9edd011a1a6615470b34e0837896a15f@rjmcmahon.com> <6EB62755-EF23-44BA-B2FF-66FAC708653D@gmx.de> <6qnq34os-3qss-s4q7-s286-2s49q890q920@ynat.uz> <27aea5070eeb1b1535f3e75489295feb@rjmcmahon.com> To: rjmcmahon X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.2) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:m6nB2Mabo3PcPq5Aqbrv8HyV1p8Y2Qf14hexI2Pdxo2Np5mLrOB pFvtxkNIhpE1LzP08joyYkQYsM9IYzv0E95LmPTFNvduXVkQNHTvOtX5jH/v8hkbGSNP5Cn ucV/JLrJNq9GpGbM5NxIAiKPgmhcGRfxw2ALl8KmdIfYiW9SjLycEbu66MevgFqgLBtUWur 7I9ALvB6ybaMo157IYPbA== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:vsVuSOSvOx8=;ipiI+uzxVPswKElz1l5bD5m9pP4 QdCWqjYpcIv1h9I1jOQKaKkencn1S0lxMtkvAkhadPfxF89nF3MFnG9DXCdJIR86u+NePvzc6 kWaxtidibLGz5EDruDnZnEv3/185t4KBsO/HPycYYck7F+KjCIG71Z5JZj/GA52HDRwW9iUm4 HA2b9lcrtg9G9q26Ki8bULOD/EmdO+EBhJFjJr9QSGcCEEbUZCbzQtFnSy+IBMb+diZl5+yVP 7HkGTKJDlWOmCoUylCUetWyCz2SudUOWoHDG5WJNhzb9ASpPQ0eUml2NjuCgTQoBirylsZeZ3 dm/P/8MKucyLpQVuYwwLn/0QGyWUnNyCMUR54OW8wy2B+L3GoBw/p2IjEjgxbLb6/zycOwJN5 qlqJmxT+VoOUGP9X9DUYbaMiibfnHemS3P8z/0evmgig/rXZzuziFnpMN/EffWmZlznKEJu+e 8avzOEhkvC2sOZNc1wbhur3FXw9Fb/mSVfrKXjylE7LJ+apYDxvmi7WAjMNi4DOZrqWndpiQt 3TKvmCucJwAdrBp7p4vLs1aMTuosL7ongnzEsUIHbqXbHv+QH91sXToBB2PIrcR6MLE6zt5ea KZTy4M2cRjvWd73ReUTDt+SaLirsg4sSzJTCqhUkIj2TXy28Ny/GT5WukG5lahfaYAYHhTOtf hTZn4gLg/lwREpSsFUi1aFzRNgvdnwzboBFDmWcJwj0NNPRV4zMAf4Lp3QQfinAGJl32acsWx 6bxlLyNWH9jmszQg0GpUMkon0x47EkAjCYNfT6UxX9Mj13u/zFQrVw8bk2lfBRI1LEqy1TWRG vIcncd+dZF458JcprYPAO78MWgKmNj2BzC8CdwM6mSzCpWxvGnFHsy8muY/xkLYDKpuKbe/0Y Uynnnsvi6ITqZnWuthiyE6paCnXa9VbCgjSsgG+66B/zz3N5oKtoQnrd/WtHa5RvmiS/8/Cy5 s09RbxnTI04In+NVUOwFQ4xsjHY= Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 08:28:25 -0000 Hi Bob, > On Mar 28, 2023, at 19:47, rjmcmahon wrote: >=20 > Interesting. I'm skeptical that our cities in the U.S. can get this = (structural separation) right. There really isn't that much to get wrong, you built the access network = and terminate the per household fibers in arge enough "exchanges" there = you offer ISPs to lighten up the fibers on the premise that customers = can use any ISP they want (that is present in the exchange)... and on = ISP change will just be patched differently in the exchange. While I think that local "government" also could successfully run = internet access services, I see no reason why they should do so (unless = there is no competition). The goal here is to move the "natural monopoly" of the access network = out of the hand of the "market" (as markets simply fail as optimizing = resource allocation instruments under mono- and oligopoly conditions, on = either side). >=20 > Pre-coaxial cable & contract carriage, the FCC licensed spectrum to = the major media companies and placed a news obligation on them for these = OTA rights. A society can't run a democracy well without quality and = factual information to the constituents. Sadly, contract carriage got = rid of that news as a public service obligation as predicted by Eli = Noam. http://www.columbia.edu/dlc/wp/citi/citinoam11.html Hence we get = January 6th and an insurrection. >=20 > It takes a staff of 300 to produce 30 minutes of news three times a = day. The co-axial franchise agreements per each city traded this = obligation for a community access channel and a small studio, and annual = franchise fees. History has shown this is insufficient for a city to = provide quality news to its citizens. Community access channels failed = miserably. I would argue this is that there are things where cities excel = and some where they simply are mediocre... managing monopoly = infrastructure (like roads, water, sometime power) with long = amortization times is something they do well (either directly or via = companies they own and operate).=20 > Another requirement was two cables so there would be "competition" in = the coaxial offerings. This rarely happened because of natural monopoly = both in the last mile and in negotiating broadcast rights (mostly for = sports.) There is only one broadcast rights winner, e.g. NBC for the = Olympics, and only one last mile winner. That's been proven empirically = in the U.S. Yes, that is why the operator of the last mile, should really = not offer services over that mile itself. Real competition on the access = lines themselves is not going to happen (at least not is sufficient = number to make a market solution viable), but there is precedence of = getting enough service providers to offer their services over access = lines (e.g. Amsterdam). > Now cities are dependent on those franchise fees for their budgets. = And the cable cos rolled up to a national level. So it's mostly the FCC = that regulates all of this where they care more about Janet Jackson's = breast than providing accurate news to help a democracy function well. = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXXVIII_halftime_show_controversy= >=20 > It gets worse as people are moving to unicast networks for their = "news." But we're really not getting news at all, we're gravitating to = emotional validations per our dysfunctions. Facebook et al happily = provide this because it sells more ads. And then the major equipment = providers claim they're doing great engineering because they can carry = "AI loads!!" and their stock goes up in value. This means ads & news = feeds that trigger dopamine hits for addicts are driving the money = flows. Which is a sad theme for undereducated populations. I am not 100% sure this is a uni- versus broadcast issue... even = on uni-cast I can consume traditional middle-of the road news and even = on broadcast I can opt for pretend-news. Sure the social media explosion = with its auto-bias-amplification incentives (they care for time spend on = the platform and will show anything they believe will people stay = longer, and guess what that is not a strategy to rhymes well with = objective information transmission, but emotional engagement, often = negative, but I think we all know this). >=20 > And ChatGPT is not the answer for our lack of education and a public = obligation to support those educations, which includes addiction = recovery programs, and the ability to think critically for ourselves. Yes, for sure not ;) This is a fad mostly, and will go away some = time in the future, once people realize that this flavor of machine = learning is great for what it is, but what it is is not what we are = prone to believe it is... Regards Sebastian >=20 > Bob >> Here is an old (2014) post on Stockholm to my class "textbook": >> = https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html >> [1] >> Stockholm: 19 years of municipal broadband success [1] >> The Stokab report should be required reading for all local government >> officials. Stockholm is one of the top Internet cities in the = worl... >> cis471.blogspot.com >> ------------------------- >> From: Starlink on behalf of >> Sebastian Moeller via Starlink >> Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2023 2:11 PM >> To: David Lang >> Cc: dan ; Frantisek Borsik >> ; libreqos >> ; Dave Taht via Starlink >> ; rjmcmahon = ; >> bloat >> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure >> w/Comcast chat >> Hi David, >>> On Mar 26, 2023, at 22:57, David Lang wrote: >>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Bloat wrote: >>>>> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital >> communications infrastructure as life support critical. >>>> Well, let's keep things in perspective, unlike power, water >> (fresh and waste), and often gas, communications infrastructure is >> mostly not critical yet. But I agree that we are clearly on a path in >> that direction, so it is time to look at that from a different >> perspective. >>>> Personally, I am a big fan of putting the access network into >> communal hands, as these guys already do a decent job with other >> critical infrastructure (see list above, plus roads) and I see a PtP >> fiber access network terminating in some CO-like locations a viable >> way to allow ISPs to compete in the internet service field all the >> while using the communally build access network for a few. IIRC this >> is how Amsterdam organized its FTTH roll-out. Just as POTS wiring has >> beed essentially unchanged for decades, I estimate that current fiber >> access lines would also last for decades requiring no active = component >> changes in the field, making them candidates for communal management. >> (With all my love for communal ownership and maintenance, these >> typically are not very nimble and hence best when we talk about life >> times of decades). >>> This is happening in some places (the town where I live is doing >> such a rollout), but the incumbant ISPs are fighting this and in many >> states have gotten laws created that prohibit towns from building = such >> systems. >> A resistance that in the current system is understandable*... >> btw, my point is not wanting to get rid of ISPs, I really just think >> that the access network is more of a natural monopoly and if we want >> actual ISP competition, the access network is the wrong place to >> implement it... as it is unlikely that we will see multiple ISPs >> running independent fibers to all/most dwelling units... There are = two >> ways I see to address this structural problem: >> a) require ISPs to rent the access links to their competitors for >> "reasonable" prices >> b) as I proposed have some non-ISP entity build and maintain the >> access network >> None of these is terribly attractive to current ISPs, but we already >> see how the economically more attractive PON approach throws a = spanner >> into a), on a PON the competitors might get bitstream access, but = will >> not be able to "light up" the fiber any way they see fit (as would be >> possible in a PtP deployment, at least in theory). My subjective >> preference is b) as I mentioned before, as I think that would offer a >> level playing field for ISPs to compete doing what they do best, = offer >> internet access service while not pushing the cost of the access >> network build-out to all-fiber onto the ISPs. This would allow a >> fairer, less revenue driven approach to select which areas to convert >> to FTTH first.... >> However this is pretty much orthogonal to Bob's idea, as I understand >> it, as this subthread really is only about getting houses hooked up = to >> the internet and ignores his proposal how to do the in-house network >> design in a future-proof way... >> Regards >> Sebastian >> *) I am not saying such resistance is nice or the right thing, just >> that I can see why it is happening. >>> David Lang >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> = https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlin= k__;!!P7nkOOY!vFtTwFdYBTFjrJCFqT0rp0o2dtaz2m-dskeRLX2dIW_Pujge6ZU8eOIxtkN_= spTDlqyyzClrVbEMFFbvL3NlUgIHOg$ >> Links: >> ------ >> [1] = https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html