From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp112.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (smtp112.iad3a.emailsrvr.com [173.203.187.112]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD0913CB37 for ; Tue, 30 Aug 2022 20:46:15 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=evslin.com; s=20220608-p431o605; t=1661906775; bh=bG1/X9cmugJohwER7IVn0Lc4cwa6wTyGtV30CY7INoo=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:From; b=OxXrNvoeswfIaIx1aq2UFkanecdfWiVWMMMPOOuK2eFX9nDJuIefQ/8y4cgod4Hg/ 3dIpUXJXAIMuV8XmByYq0VXAF5E9qT7U4gRr1E6L6bgov4P18kwmhMpbD7boVIfE2M MkYXWt1efbwTVBVnIs+EpDNFAJAJD8cBe0YDdogQ= X-Auth-ID: tom@evslin.com Received: by smtp23.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (Authenticated sender: tom-AT-evslin.com) with ESMTPSA id C1B2423B5E; Tue, 30 Aug 2022 20:46:14 -0400 (EDT) From: To: "'Ulrich Speidel'" , References: <1661878433.14064713@apps.rackspace.com> <6p5n9262-3745-pq31-5636-1rnon987o255@ynat.uz> <20220830220710.GA2653@sunf10.rd.bbc.co.uk> <15982a40-2b34-7ed1-bfa3-bced03fc3839@auckland.ac.nz> In-Reply-To: <15982a40-2b34-7ed1-bfa3-bced03fc3839@auckland.ac.nz> Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2022 20:46:10 -0400 Message-ID: <0ca801d8bcd3$13537eb0$39fa7c10$@evslin.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0CA9_01D8BCB1.8C4428A0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQIPRsMrjCLeIUrVvf24O402fV6ZjgFbka6sAgkRiRgCL1qAJAHrApp1rR8efFA= Content-Language: en-us X-Classification-ID: 0cf5a8fc-c3b6-4549-a56a-99ad868298e6-1-1 Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink "beam spread" X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2022 00:46:15 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0CA9_01D8BCB1.8C4428A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think that CDNs will initially collocate some servers at SL = uplink/downlink sites and then, eventually, in space where they can be = accessed by sat-sat links. This sems a natural extension of business = model both for CDNs and for SL and other satellite providers. For = starters, there=E2=80=99s no good reason why a DNS query should take = four hops. The more content that moves to space, the faster the response = time for SL and the less load on its uplink/downlink sites. I speculated = more about that evolution here The Internet and The Cloud Are Going into = Space = and speculated that there will also be orbital cloud = computing centers for many reasons including solar power Computing = Clouds in Orbit =E2=80=93 A Possible Roadmap = =20 =20 =20 =20 From: Starlink On Behalf Of = Ulrich Speidel via Starlink Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2022 6:51 PM To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink "beam spread" =20 There's another aspect here that is often overlooked when looking purely = at the data rate that you can get from your fibre/cable/wifi/satellite, = and this is where the data comes from. A large percentage of Internet content these days comes from content = delivery networks (CDNs). These innately work on the assumption that = it's the core of the Internet that presents a bottleneck, and that the = aggregate bandwidth of all last mile connections is high in comparison. = A second assumption is that a large share of the content that gets = requested gets requested many times, and many times by users in the same = corner(s) of the Internet. The conclusion is that therefore content is = best served from a location close to the end user, so as to keep RTTs = low and - importantly - keep the load of long distance bottleneck links. Now it's fairly clear that large numbers of fibres to end users make for = the best kind of network between CDN and end user. Local WiFi hotspots = with limited range allow frequency re-use, as do ground based cellular = networks, so they're OK, too, in that respect. But anything that needs = to project RF energy over a longer distance to get directly to the end = user hasn't got nature on its side. This is, IMHO, Starlink's biggest design flaw at the moment: Going = direct to end user site rather providing a bridge to a local ISP may be = circumventing the lack of last mile infrastructure in the US, but it = also makes incredibly inefficient use of spectrum and satellite = resource. If every viral cat video that a thousand Starlink users in = Iowa are just dying to see literally has to go to space a thousand times = and back again rather than once, you arguably have a problem. And yes, small neighbourhood networks of the type Mike described could = put a significant dent into that problem. But do Starlink actually see = Mike supplying 100 people as helpful, or do they see it as 99 customers = they can no longer sell a dishy to? Given how they push their services = into the market, I suspect it might be the latter.=20 On 31/08/2022 10:07 am, Brandon Butterworth via Starlink wrote: On Tue Aug 30, 2022 at 02:01:49PM -0700, David Lang via Starlink wrote: > You are absolutly correct that people who can get fiber (and probably = even=20 > most DSL) are far better using that than Starlink, and=20 > last-few-hundred-meters wireless can be better (like DSL, it depends = on the=20 > exact service available) ... > People who can get that sort of service are not the target users for=20 > Starlink. But unless Starlink turn them away some will still take the service despite better options. I do UK FWA and FTTP in rural areas and know others in the industry. Some have reported being turned down as the odd customer is waiting for Starlink (instead of taking a government GBP4k+ subsidy giving them free fibre/FWA install) There's no telling some people. brandon _______________________________________________ Starlink mailing list Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net =20 https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink --=20 **************************************************************** Dr. Ulrich Speidel =20 School of Computer Science =20 Room 303S.594 (City Campus) =20 The University of Auckland u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz =20 http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ **************************************************************** =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0CA9_01D8BCB1.8C4428A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I think that CDNs will = initially collocate some servers at SL uplink/downlink sites and then, = eventually, in space where they can be accessed by sat-sat links. This = sems a natural extension of business model both for CDNs and for SL and = other satellite providers. For starters, there=E2=80=99s no good reason = why a DNS query should take four hops. The more content that moves to = space, the faster the response time for SL and the less load on its = uplink/downlink sites. I speculated more about that evolution here The Internet and The Cloud Are Going into = Space and speculated that there will also be orbital cloud = computing centers for many reasons including solar power Computing Clouds in Orbit =E2=80=93 A Possible = Roadmap

 

 

 

From: Starlink = <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf Of = Ulrich Speidel via Starlink
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2022 = 6:51 PM
To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
Subject: = Re: [Starlink] Starlink "beam = spread"

 

There's another aspect here = that is often overlooked when looking purely at the data rate that you = can get from your fibre/cable/wifi/satellite, and this is where the data = comes from.

A large percentage of Internet content = these days comes from content delivery networks (CDNs). These innately = work on the assumption that it's the core of the Internet that presents = a bottleneck, and that the aggregate bandwidth of all last mile = connections is high in comparison. A second assumption is that a large = share of the content that gets requested gets requested many times, and = many times by users in the same corner(s) of the Internet. The = conclusion is that therefore content is best served from a location = close to the end user, so as to keep RTTs low and - importantly - keep = the load of long distance bottleneck links.

Now it's = fairly clear that large numbers of fibres to end users make for the best = kind of network between CDN and end user. Local WiFi hotspots with = limited range allow frequency re-use, as do ground based cellular = networks, so they're OK, too, in that respect.  But anything that = needs to project RF energy over a longer distance to get directly to the = end user hasn't got nature on its side.

This is, IMHO, = Starlink's biggest design flaw at the moment: Going direct to end user = site rather providing a bridge to a local ISP may be circumventing the = lack of last mile infrastructure in the US, but it also makes incredibly = inefficient use of spectrum and satellite resource. If every viral cat = video that a thousand Starlink users in Iowa are just dying to see = literally has to go to space a thousand times and back again rather than = once, you arguably have a problem.

And yes, small = neighbourhood networks of the type Mike described could put a = significant dent into that problem. But do Starlink actually see Mike = supplying 100 people as helpful, or do they see it as 99 customers they = can no longer sell a dishy to? Given how they push their services into = the market, I suspect it might be the latter.

On 31/08/2022 10:07 am, Brandon Butterworth via = Starlink wrote:

On = Tue Aug 30, 2022 at 02:01:49PM -0700, David Lang via Starlink = wrote:
> You are absolutly correct that people who can get fiber = (and probably even
> most DSL) are far better using that than = Starlink, and
> last-few-hundred-meters wireless can be better = (like DSL, it depends on the
> exact service = available)
...
> People who can get that sort of service are = not the target users for
> Starlink.

But unless Starlink = turn them away some will still take the
service despite better = options.

I do UK FWA and FTTP in rural areas and know others in = the
industry. Some have reported being turned down as the
odd = customer is waiting for Starlink (instead of taking a
government = GBP4k+ subsidy giving them free fibre/FWA install)

There's no = telling some = people.

brandon
_______________________________________________=
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat= .net
https://lists.bu= fferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

-- =

***************************************************=
*************
Dr. Ulrich =
Speidel
 
School of =
Computer Science
 
Room =
303S.594 (City =
Campus)
 
The University =
of Auckland
u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz =

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.=
nz/~ulrich/
************************************=
****************************
 
= 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0CA9_01D8BCB1.8C4428A0--