From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from vsmx001.dclux.xion.oxcs.net (vsmx001.dclux.xion.oxcs.net [185.74.65.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AAF2C3B29D for ; Thu, 14 Jul 2022 10:56:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from proxy-1.proxy.oxio.ns.xion.oxcs.net (proxy-1.proxy.oxio.ns.xion.oxcs.net [83.61.18.4]) by mx-out.dclux.xion.oxcs.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 034668C03B6; Thu, 14 Jul 2022 14:56:33 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=dclux.xion.oxcs.net; s=mail1; t=1657810598; bh=AXBjzqGV77tPgBFd3PdkcXtw3685G4W5tESMkufd/bY=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=QvMtf/jrrfmCZMs1P4qyg5MrvXx4Tb7KKAez94TMzyRjhJfzEgj276A2dB3qrzgtI bBLZGbjdHLQz1HtqOfm877CXUy7tgMZ3L1YCMOwsONNMvKdYbj2qgaBmf0cCHKNNnP 1cLT15Kg6Whk3z68ltUzfepKrAUQLELW/6LmpQ5QwGseaHeXU0Riyr2DSixxElzAD/ UI2XjF0k49NhNEdlV0NVli0BSRhzbcNI0gR9vfk/7MxaXomLfhcEHEep0rES15M+k0 /PkO5HVZacrS1KXzj++wbL11HcBm6wnCxdqGKkmN13V+psNoFvuyiLruGNu5QcwOc7 gvHoV1rwacKzg== Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 16:56:21 +0200 From: Mike Puchol To: Jared Mauch , Nitinder Mohan Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink Message-ID: <0e33c411-d5a7-411f-a80b-ae9d48cdaf2a@Spark> In-Reply-To: References: <20220713173602.0582c9b3@spidey.rellim.com> <92n4s129-6r15-7q75-7293-qpo73q298srn@ynat.uz> <841ca6dc-d6d3-46ab-87c0-d6bcaa31533b@Spark> <42D3F3C5-C1B3-48EA-8C45-2540ACD787E4@gmx.de> <0C0F0D5F-7CF6-412A-AD1A-392323ADB2FB@gmx.de> <858AB3A2-EDE0-4035-A4FE-EC2313CC3197@puck.nether.net> X-Readdle-Message-ID: 0e33c411-d5a7-411f-a80b-ae9d48cdaf2a@Spark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="62d02ea0_5ff87e05_85e5" X-VadeSecure-Status: LEGIT X-VADE-STATUS: LEGIT Subject: Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 14:56:39 -0000 --62d02ea0_5ff87e05_85e5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline The handovers are clear from the R=46 traces, but they won=E2=80=99t indi= cate per se what satellite is being used. I have a cunning plan for a rot= ating vertical metal plate which, given the right calculations, would blo= ck 10=C2=B0 of the =46OV, which would allow inference of the satellite in= use. There are also narrowband uplink signals that are likely used for c= hannel sounding and basic signaling between terminal and satellite. The other interesting observation is that the power spike (=7E200W for 1-= 2 seconds) that happens at boot time, corresponds to a burst of these nar= rowband transmissions on various frequencies at once. Best, Mike On Jul 14, 2022, 15:33 +0200, Nitinder Mohan , wrote: > Hi Jared, > > Turns out that SpaceX has deprecated the API calls to get satelliteID a= nd cellID over gRPC so that information is no longer available. See=C2=A0= https://github.com/danopstech/starlink/issues/27 > > Too bad since those would have been quite useful to understand performa= nce trends. > > Thanks and Regards > > Nitinder Mohan > Technical University Munich (TUM) > https://www.nitindermohan.com/ > > =46rom:=C2=A0Nitinder Mohan > Reply:=C2=A0Nitinder Mohan > Date:=C2=A014. July 2022 at 15:05:42 > To:=C2=A0Jared Mauch > Cc:=C2=A0Dave Taht via Starlink , Mik= e Puchol > Subject:=C2=A0 Re: =5BStarlink=5D starlink at sea > > > Hi Jared, > > > > Thanks much for the pointer. This seems promising=21 > > > > We have a stationary dish available locally so we can try pulling inf= ormation at our end. > > > > Thanks and Regards > > > > Nitinder Mohan > > Technical University Munich (TUM) > > https://www.nitindermohan.com/ > > > > =46rom:=C2=A0Jared Mauch > > Reply:=C2=A0Jared Mauch > > Date:=C2=A014. July 2022 at 14:57:25 > > To:=C2=A0Nitinder Mohan > > Cc:=C2=A0Mike Puchol , Dave Taht via Starlink > > Subject:=C2=A0 Re: =5BStarlink=5D starlink at sea > > > > > I haven=E2=80=99t poked hard, but it does seem you can get it: > > > > > > currentCellId current=5Fcell=5Fid > > > > > > Seem to be in the GRPC proto dump from the dish. > > > > > > https://github.com/sparky8512/starlink-grpc-tools/blob/main/extract= =5Fprotoset.py > > > > > > This should pull it out, if you want from my (stationary) dish I be= t I can run something to pull/dump the info. > > > > > > - jared > > > > > > > On Jul 14, 2022, at 8:49 AM, Nitinder Mohan via Starlink wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Mike, > > > > > > > > Do you happen to have a tool that can extract the current uplink = channel of Starlink and (more importantly) which staellite it is connecte= d to at any given time=3F I wanted to track the handovers in Starlink and= try to find its impact on network performance but cannot seem to get tho= se values. > > > > > > > > Thanks and Regards > > > > > > > > Nitinder Mohan > > > > Technical University Munich (TUM) > > > > https://www.nitindermohan.com/ > > > > > > > > =46rom: Sebastian Moeller via Starlink > > > > Reply: Sebastian Moeller > > > > Date: 14. July 2022 at 14:35:16 > > > > To: Mike Puchol > > > > Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink > > > > Subject: Re: =5BStarlink=5D starlink at sea > > > > > > > >> Hi Mike. > > > >> > > > >> Thanks a lot. This is intersting. > > > >> > > > >> > On Jul 14, 2022, at 14:02, Mike Puchol wr= ote: > > > >> > > > > >> > The uplink is an O=46DM signal with 128 subcarriers, looking a= t the signal in the time domain reveals a frame length corresponding to 1= 4% (from memory, 1,1 us frame vs 6.7 us pause). I have two terminals 1 me= ter apart and they can each achieve 30 Mbps at the same time over the sam= e uplink channel. I would expect the satellite to assign a particular set= of slots to a terminal. > > > >> > > > >> So assuming the 30 Mbps being gross rate and not measured goodpu= t: > > > >> > > > >> 30Mbps -> 30 / (1.1/(6.7+1.1)) =3D 212.73 Mb/s while actively se= nding, and > > > >> 1000000=C2=B5s/s / (6.7+1.1)=C2=B5s =3D 128205.128205 slots/sec > > > >> (30 / (1.1/(6.7+1.1))) * 1000=5E2 / (1000000 / (6.7+1.1)) =3D 16= 59.27 bits/slot 1659.27/8 =3D 207.41 Bytes/slot > > > >> > > > >> with 128 subcarriers that would be approximately an average > > > >> > > > >> 1659.27/128 =3D 12.96 or =7E 13 bit/subcarrier > > > >> > > > >> if all carriers are loaded equally (which is unlikely, I expect = some re-arrangement ot bits between subcarriers to account for different = levels of noise and what not). > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > If there are any O=46DM blind analysis experts in the room, sh= out=21 > > > >> > > > >> Please do=21 > > > >> Regards > > > >> Sebastian > > > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > Best, > > > >> > > > > >> > Mike > > > >> > On Jul 14, 2022, 13:33 +0200, Sebastian Moeller , wrote: > > > >> >> Hi Mike, > > > >> >> > > > >> >>> On Jul 14, 2022, at 13:15, Mike Puchol via Starlink wrote: > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> On the multiple terminals, I have verified that the duty cyc= le of a consumer terminal is 14%, thus, you could have 7 terminals on a s= ingle uplink channel with some guard time. > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Could you elaborate how that works.how the terminals will be = interleaved in that situation=3F > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Regards > > > >> >> Sebastian > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >>> I have seen 30 Mbps up, so you=E2=80=99d be able to push 210= Mbps in uplink, or a spectral efficiency of about 3.4 bps/Hz. > > > >> >> > > > >> > > > >> =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= > > > >> Starlink mailing list > > > >> Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > > > >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= > > > > Starlink mailing list > > > > Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > --62d02ea0_5ff87e05_85e5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
The handovers are clear from the R=46 traces, but t= hey won=E2=80=99t indicate per se what satellite is being used. I have a = cunning plan for a rotating vertical metal plate which, given the right c= alculations, would block 10=C2=B0 of the =46OV, which would allow inferen= ce of the satellite in use. There are also narrowband uplink signals that= are likely used for channel sounding and basic signaling between termina= l and satellite.

The other interesting observation is that the power spike (=7E200W for 1-= 2 seconds) that happens at boot time, corresponds to a burst of these nar= rowband transmissions on various frequencies at once.

Best,

Mike
On Jul 14, 2022, 15:33 +0200, Nitin= der Mohan <mohan=40in.tum.de>, wrote:
Hi Ja= red,

Turns= out that SpaceX has deprecated the API calls to get satelliteID and cell= ID over gRPC so that information is no longer available. See&=23160;https= ://github.com/danopstech/starlink/issues/27

Too b= ad since those would have been quite useful to understand performance tre= nds.

Thanks and Regards

Nitinder Mohan
Technical University Munich (TUM)

=46rom:&=23160;Nitinder Mohan <mohan=40in.tum.de>
Reply:&=23160;Nitinder Mohan <mohan=40in.tum.de>
Date:&=23160;14. July 2022 at 15:05:42
To:&=23160;Jared Mauch <jared=40puck.nether.net>
Cc:&=23160;Dave Taht via Starlink = <starlink=40li= sts.bufferbloat.net>, Mike Puchol<= /span> <mike=40starlink.sx&g= t;
Subject:&=23160; Re: =5BStarlink=5D starl= ink at sea

Hi Jared,

Thanks much for the pointer. This seems promising=21

We have a stationary dish available locally so we can try pulling inform= ation at our end.&=23160;
Thanks and Rega= rds

Nitinder Mohan
Technical University Munich (TUM)

=46rom:&=23160;Jared Mauch <jared=40puck.nether.net>
Reply:&=23160;Jared Mauch <jared=40puck.nether.net><= br /> Date:&=23160;14. July 2022 at 14:57:25
To:&=23160;Nitinder Mohan <mohan=40in.tum.de>
Cc:&=23160;Mike Puchol <mike=40starlink.sx>, Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject:&=23160; Re: =5BStarlink=5D starl= ink at sea

I haven=E2=80=99t poked hard, but it does seem you can get it:=

currentCellId current=5Fcell=5Fid

Seem to be in the GRPC proto dump from the dish.

https://github.com/sparky8512/starlink-grpc-tools/blob/main/extract=5Fpro= toset.py

This should pull it out, if you want from my (stationary) dish I bet I ca= n run something to pull/dump the info.

- jared

> On Jul 14, 2022, at 8:49 AM, Nitinder Mohan via Starlink <starlin= k=40lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> Do you happen to have a tool that can extract the current uplink cha= nnel of Starlink and (more importantly) which staellite it is connected t= o at any given time=3F I wanted to track the handovers in Starlink and tr= y to find its impact on network performance but cannot seem to get those = values.
>
> Thanks and Regards
>
> Nitinder Mohan
> Technical University Munich (TUM)
> https://www.nitindermohan.com/
>
> =46rom: Sebastian Moeller via Starlink <starlink=40lists.bufferbl= oat.net>
> Reply: Sebastian Moeller <moeller0=40gmx.de>
> Date: 14. July 2022 at 14:35:16
> To: Mike Puchol <mike=40starlink.sx>
> Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net><= br /> > Subject: Re: =5BStarlink=5D starlink at sea
>
>> Hi Mike.
>>
>> Thanks a lot. This is intersting.
>>
>> > On Jul 14, 2022, at 14:02, Mike Puchol <mike=40starlink.= sx> wrote:
>> >
>> > The uplink is an O=46DM signal with 128 subcarriers, lookin= g at the signal in the time domain reveals a frame length corresponding t= o 14% (from memory, 1,1 us frame vs 6.7 us pause). I have two terminals 1= meter apart and they can each achieve 30 Mbps at the same time over the = same uplink channel. I would expect the satellite to assign a particular = set of slots to a terminal.
>>
>> So assuming the 30 Mbps being gross rate and not measured goodpu= t:
>>
>> 30Mbps -> 30 / (1.1/(6.7+1.1)) =3D 212.73 Mb/s while actively= sending, and
>> 1000000=C2=B5s/s / (6.7+1.1)=C2=B5s =3D 128205.128205 slots/sec<= br /> >> (30 / (1.1/(6.7+1.1))) * 1000=5E2 / (1000000 / (6.7+1.1)) =3D 16= 59.27 bits/slot 1659.27/8 =3D 207.41 Bytes/slot
>>
>> with 128 subcarriers that would be approximately an average
>>
>> 1659.27/128 =3D 12.96 or =7E 13 bit/subcarrier
>>
>> if all carriers are loaded equally (which is unlikely, I expect = some re-arrangement ot bits between subcarriers to account for different = levels of noise and what not).
>>
>>
>> > If there are any O=46DM blind analysis experts in the room,= shout=21
>>
>> Please do=21
>> Regards
>> Sebastian
>>
>> >
>> > Best,
>> >
>> > Mike
>> > On Jul 14, 2022, 13:33 +0200, Sebastian Moeller <moeller= 0=40gmx.de>, wrote:
>> >> Hi Mike,
>> >>
>> >>> On Jul 14, 2022, at 13:15, Mike Puchol via Starlink= <starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> On the multiple terminals, I have verified that the= duty cycle of a consumer terminal is 14%, thus, you could have 7 termina= ls on a single uplink channel with some guard time.
>> >>
>> >> Could you elaborate how that works.how the terminals wi= ll be interleaved in that situation=3F
>> >>
>> >> Regards
>> >> Sebastian
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> I have seen 30 Mbps up, so you=E2=80=99d be able to= push 210 Mbps in uplink, or a spectral efficiency of about 3.4 bps/Hz. >> >>
>>
>> =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
> =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F<= br /> > Starlink mailing list
> Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

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