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[72.253.192.210]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d2e1a72fcca58-70242aea324sm7816485b3a.109.2024.06.04.13.58.29 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 04 Jun 2024 13:58:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Eugene Y Chang Message-Id: <1078E544-F61B-4289-BCA1-BCDD9FA77481@ieee.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_81AFD847-AAC1-437C-AC93-F1A97F807CFC"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.8\)) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2024 10:58:26 -1000 In-Reply-To: Cc: Eugene Y Chang , Stuart Cheshire , Dave Taht via Starlink , Colin_Higbie To: Sauli Kiviranta References: <438B1BC4-D465-497A-B6BA-700E1D411036@ieee.org> <79C02ABB-B2A6-4B4D-98F4-6540D3F96EBB@ieee.org> <7E918B58-382A-4793-A144-13A7075CA56C@connectivitycap.com> <13rq2389-9012-p95n-s494-q3pp070s497n@ynat.uz> <6qop2p3o-351p-788q-q1q2-86sosnq3rn21@ynat.uz> <3FF32F52-4A93-496B-85FF-00020FA4A48B@gmx.de> <08F6942E-CC08-4956-B92E-CBEC091D86E4@ieee.org> <2F510BD5-2D7E-4A6A-A3DE-C529D14F6FBC@apple.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.8) Subject: Re: [Starlink] The "reasons" that bufferbloat isn't a problem X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2024 20:58:31 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_81AFD847-AAC1-437C-AC93-F1A97F807CFC Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_44DB2C9A-A4A9-43F0-A6A4-51997D289797" --Apple-Mail=_44DB2C9A-A4A9-43F0-A6A4-51997D289797 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 For automobiles, the sensation of speed comes from engine noise and the = G-force at the seat-of-your-pants. I think of it as mostly the second derivative of the motion (aka = acceleration). For snappiness of a network action, it is the time interval from = activation to completion. This perception can be enhanced by giving = quick feedback (response) while many things are still in motion (still = incomplete). We do need to agree on what makes a network snappy and how that is = measured. Gene ---------------------------------------------- Eugene Chang eugene.chang@ieee.org > On Jun 4, 2024, at 10:06 AM, Sauli Kiviranta via Starlink = wrote: >=20 > Good examples Stuart, it is quite interesting that as humanity we have = not come up with aggregate term what would fairly collapse the = dimensions to one single metric that would describe the snappy feeling = we intuitively seek for but can not quite verbalize. Vehicles have the = same issues, we have top speed (F1 at 360mph feels fast compared to = Starship at 16000mph), we have acceleration (Hot-rod going 0 to 60 mph = in 5 seconds feels high but pales in comparison to Tesla going 0 to 60 = mph in 2 sec), we have horse powers (tractor plowing field with 300hp = feels great but seems small compared to 1000hp of Hot-rod) then also = there is torque (tractor with 1450 Nm of torque wins a Tesla having = 900Nm on wheel while at completely different torque curve). >=20 > Capacity has the same issue as literally the truck from your example = shipping magnetic tapes for "raw carry capacity" but it does not feel = responsive, snappy, good to handle in the "traffic" of Internet. We have = jitter, that could be compared to how a vehicle does in repeatability of = track laps? We have packet loss on how the car handles on curves and = does it slip off the track or on accelerations spin the wheels? Download = is speed forward, upload is almost like speed at reverse gear usually = far worse. Latency is like a lap track as such, depends on the track, = use-case specific tests "What time did it do on N=C3=BCrburgring?" or = "How fast does it go from 0 to 60Mbps? Less than 200ms?". Horse power = feels much like raw capacity of the HW / radio channel and techniques = available beam forming, frequencies etc. what was discussed here related = to Starlink and even collectively across different technologies. Speed = is then instead of how much specific combination of modem and = base-station combo can achieve at certain configuration? Torque feels = like ability to maintain that performance, closest we get is loaded = performance in context of bufferbloat? >=20 > Watching videos on Netflix require different performance = characteristics than downloading a big update to Fortnite. One has = certain acceleration need to have snappy user experience but focus is = more on connection stability at certain bitrate. On the other hand = Fortnite update you want to be delivered at brute force speeds without = ruining others user experience. >=20 > Maybe we can not find that aggregate property or metric, but just need = to be rigorous on making sure we accurately characterize each dimension = and standardize them so the confusion and play with words, specially = with marketing, get stabilized. Each needs to have standardized = benchmarks much like 3D rendering benchmarks and PC perf tests are done? = All that said, as I failed to come up with a perfect term, "varying = performance ISP links" feels like the right thing to say? Now we have = obfuscated to be able to throw any of the dimensions underneath. Only = thing left for us to do is then to provide those dimensions like a = nutrient labels. We are getting there? Nothing new under the sun also to = some extend. >=20 > Just as a funny side note on the tractor marketing: >=20 > =E2=80=9DTorque gives you the feeling of responsiveness and that the = machine does the right things,=E2=80=9D Tapani Katila encapsulates his = view. =E2=80=9CThe torque is directly linked to the feeling of having = power available in the entire range of the power curve, resulting in = more meaningful work.=E2=80=9D from = https://www.agcopower.com/power-is-important-but-torque-is-crucial/ = >=20 > Seems like some other people are also trying to figure out what = dimensions to showcase to customers? >=20 > Thank you for the thought provoking examples! >=20 > Is bufferbloat property of a vehicle or characteristic of the road = design? Is it a question of ICE vs EV -or- roundabout vs crossing with = traffic lights? Feels more like a roundabout, no? Is this the problem = behind the objections? >=20 > - Sauli >=20 > On Tue, Jun 4, 2024 at 9:19=E2=80=AFPM Stuart Cheshire via Starlink = > = wrote: > On May 7, 2024, at 18:48, Dave Taht via Starlink = > = wrote: >=20 > > This was a wonderful post, rich! >=20 > = > >=20 > I agree. Thanks for writing this Rich. >=20 > One minor change I will request. Any time you write words like = =E2=80=9Cspeed=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cfast=E2=80=9D, pause and consider = whether it would be more accurate to use some other term like = =E2=80=9Ccapacity=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cbandwidth=E2=80=9D, or = =E2=80=9Cthroughput=E2=80=9D. Part of what keeps us in this mess is that = people equate network capacity with =E2=80=9Cspeed=E2=80=9D, as if those = terms were synonyms. We can=E2=80=99t change how people think overnight, = but at least we can avoid further reinforcing that wrong thinking. >=20 > If someone has 200 Mb/s Internet service and it feels slow, then they = might upgrade to 400 Mb/s Internet service and expect everything to be = uniformly twice as fast. We here know that doubling the network capacity = may make large downloads faster, but everything else is most likely = unchanged, and can be even worse. >=20 > People never make this mistake in other contexts. If someone commutes = to work in their 20-foot RV feels that it=E2=80=99s too slow, then = upgrading to a 40-foot RV will not get them to work faster. A 40-foot RV = is *bigger* than a 20-foot RV, but it=E2=80=99s probably not *faster*. = If you are moving a vast amount of cargo that requires multiple trips, = then a larger truck will let you complete that task in fewer trips. But = for most daily driving, a bigger truck will not get to your destination = any quicker. >=20 > Some simple edits: >=20 > Instead of =E2=80=9Cvarying speed ISP links=E2=80=9D how about = =E2=80=9Cvarying capacity ISP links=E2=80=9D? >=20 > Instead of =E2=80=9Cthey profit if you decide your network is too slow = and you upgrade to a faster device/plan=E2=80=9D how about =E2=80=9Cthey = profit if you decide your network is too slow and you upgrade to a = higher throughput device/plan=E2=80=9D? >=20 > Stuart Cheshire >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink = > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink --Apple-Mail=_44DB2C9A-A4A9-43F0-A6A4-51997D289797 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
For automobiles, the sensation of speed comes from engine = noise and the G-force at the seat-of-your-pants.

I think of it as mostly the second = derivative of the motion (aka acceleration).

For snappiness of a network action, it = is the time interval from activation to completion. This perception can = be enhanced by giving quick feedback (response) while many things are = still in motion (still incomplete).

We do need to agree on what makes a = network snappy and how that is measured.



Gene
-------------------------------------------= ---
Eugene Chang






On Jun 4, 2024, at 10:06 AM, Sauli Kiviranta via Starlink = <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

Good examples Stuart, it is quite interesting that as = humanity we have not come up with aggregate term what would fairly = collapse the dimensions to one single metric that would describe the = snappy feeling we intuitively seek for but can not quite verbalize. = Vehicles have the same issues, we have top speed (F1 at 360mph feels = fast compared to Starship at 16000mph), we have acceleration (Hot-rod = going 0 to 60 mph in 5 seconds feels high but pales in comparison to = Tesla going 0 to 60 mph in 2 sec), we have horse powers (tractor plowing = field with 300hp feels great but seems small compared to 1000hp of = Hot-rod) then also there is torque (tractor with 1450 Nm of torque wins = a Tesla having 900Nm on wheel while at completely different torque = curve).

Capacity has the same issue as = literally the truck from your example shipping magnetic tapes for "raw = carry capacity" but it does not feel responsive, snappy, good to handle = in the "traffic" of Internet. We have jitter, that could be compared to = how a vehicle does in repeatability of track laps? We have packet loss = on how the car handles on curves and does it slip off the track or on = accelerations spin the wheels? Download is speed forward, upload is = almost like speed at reverse gear usually far worse. Latency is like a = lap track as such, depends on the track, use-case specific tests "What = time did it do on N=C3=BCrburgring?" or "How fast does it go from 0 = to 60Mbps? Less than 200ms?". Horse power feels much like raw capacity = of the HW / radio channel and techniques available beam forming, = frequencies etc. what was discussed here related to Starlink and even = collectively across different technologies. Speed is then instead of how = much specific combination of modem and base-station combo can achieve at = certain configuration? Torque feels like ability to maintain that = performance, closest we get is loaded performance in context of = bufferbloat?

Watching = videos on Netflix require different performance characteristics than = downloading a big update to Fortnite. One has certain acceleration need = to have snappy user experience but focus is more on connection stability = at certain bitrate. On the other hand Fortnite update you want to be = delivered at brute force speeds without ruining others user = experience.

Maybe we = can not find that aggregate property or metric, but just need to be = rigorous on making sure we accurately characterize each dimension and = standardize them so the confusion and play with words, specially with = marketing, get stabilized. Each needs to have standardized benchmarks = much like 3D rendering benchmarks and PC perf tests are done? All that = said, as I failed to come up with a perfect term, "varying performance = ISP links" feels like the right thing to say? Now we have obfuscated to = be able to throw any of the dimensions underneath. Only thing left for = us to do is then to provide those dimensions like a nutrient labels. We = are getting there? Nothing new under the sun also to some extend.

Just as a funny side = note on the tractor marketing:

=E2=80=9DTorqu= e gives you the feeling of responsiveness and that the machine=20 does the right things,=E2=80=9D Tapani Katila encapsulates his view. = =E2=80=9CThe torque is directly linked to the feeling of having power available in the=20 entire range of the power curve, resulting in more meaningful work.=E2=80=9D= from https://www.agcopower.com/power-is-important-but-torque-is-cruc= ial/

Seems like = some other people are also trying to figure out what dimensions to = showcase to customers?

Thank you for the thought provoking examples!

Is bufferbloat property = of a vehicle or characteristic of the road design? Is it a question of = ICE vs EV -or- roundabout vs crossing with traffic lights? Feels more = like a roundabout, no? Is this the problem behind the objections?

- Sauli

On Tue, Jun 4, 2024 at 9:19=E2=80=AFPM = Stuart Cheshire via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
On May 7, 2024, at 18:48, Dave Taht = via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> = wrote:

> This was a wonderful post, rich!

<https://randomneuronsfiring.com/all-the-reasons-that-bufferbloa= t-isnt-a-problem/>

I agree. Thanks for writing this Rich.

One minor change I will request. Any time you write words like = =E2=80=9Cspeed=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cfast=E2=80=9D, pause and consider = whether it would be more accurate to use some other term like = =E2=80=9Ccapacity=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cbandwidth=E2=80=9D, or = =E2=80=9Cthroughput=E2=80=9D. Part of what keeps us in this mess is that = people equate network capacity with =E2=80=9Cspeed=E2=80=9D, as if those = terms were synonyms. We can=E2=80=99t change how people think overnight, = but at least we can avoid further reinforcing that wrong thinking.

If someone has 200 Mb/s Internet service and it feels slow, then they = might upgrade to 400 Mb/s Internet service and expect everything to be = uniformly twice as fast. We here know that doubling the network capacity = may make large downloads faster, but everything else is most likely = unchanged, and can be even worse.

People never make this mistake in other contexts. If someone commutes to = work in their 20-foot RV feels that it=E2=80=99s too slow, then = upgrading to a 40-foot RV will not get them to work faster. A 40-foot RV = is *bigger* than a 20-foot RV, but it=E2=80=99s probably not *faster*. = If you are moving a vast amount of cargo that requires multiple trips, = then a larger truck will let you complete that task in fewer trips. But = for most daily driving, a bigger truck will not get to your destination = any quicker.

Some simple edits:

Instead of =E2=80=9Cvarying speed ISP links=E2=80=9D how about = =E2=80=9Cvarying capacity ISP links=E2=80=9D?

Instead of =E2=80=9Cthey profit if you decide your network is too slow = and you upgrade to a faster device/plan=E2=80=9D how about =E2=80=9Cthey = profit if you decide your network is too slow and you upgrade to a = higher throughput device/plan=E2=80=9D?

Stuart Cheshire

_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
_______________________________________________
Starlink = mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

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