From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mo4-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de (mo4-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de [85.215.255.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB2523B29D for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2022 08:50:45 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1644328244; s=strato-dkim-0002; d=vdr.net; h=In-Reply-To:From:References:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:Cc:Date:From: Subject:Sender; bh=Ki2f+gejeZ9HCbhsZuGIsVp+PgJ2HWT9V6XRuFGUYEE=; b=qX08ZidvzSKWOmHBtcvo6w744QFU7QHY5AOWrYDhhumaThQRiys1m4uG9Z9FWpT3YS Q7o/c/5WH81wJcqI7PIvDwwXGDiKqzE2bDVZ7wF5JFADsEpcJypB99Iz/aMrDY8uxJRe 3QmGXBX7d98JNhpBL3rr/ykAKXzE/VI2vwwPHU/zuxrbTmKBxxxYfKJMD8ESYupyRBf3 x90MbNW0+v/tuSdL1ObrGXEGTzPD49HZosL8cbnOGNDzFYOtTQ8pDqLu+RMSZj06lgZs AZ7gCXn9/M5URUeyvsJ0Sm2d7WbyLFKJGXH4Wip/thxPFhzEi44pQm5f/Q6knt4IG96H fSeA== Authentication-Results: strato.com; dkim=none X-RZG-AUTH: ":L3oAZ2C+f+0rWOBO0o0FCt0K/NLK22L9vRfsowfGeUwZvHoRQNb8RvCxA+WkecCU+jOKlYAMsJYNj/DtDtOQgI6rKox5lBE=" X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Received: from [IPV6:2a01:c22:c85c:8900:28ca:7031:34bd:4112] by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 47.39.0 AUTH) with ESMTPSA id Yf0366y18DohXdy (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2022 14:50:43 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------zNjR0RNTKFGMfnSwKcPyCkQ9" Message-ID: <10acc51c-f00c-02cc-c117-ed6083faf9d0@vdr.net> Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 14:50:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.1 Content-Language: en-GB To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net References: <431oq9ns-qnpn-n56r-6np6-374rsq317q@ynat.uz> <8ecdc077-1751-4302-a013-fa35b2291a87@Spark> <380541e2-c5fa-b3ff-b28c-8d3d993be416@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <5d9dab2c-3c20-4d18-aa1d-cc72bf250843@Spark> <736pq4q3-q21n-p6rn-9391-o56qn77npn2@ynat.uz> <9383f6d3-b6e3-de25-fee0-4416bd05c030@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <7ffdb646-0d02-c1fa-6857-576c2681490c@falco.ca> <2e2c67c8-839b-e1af-5937-78dab715d482@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <8b7fd197-777d-e963-628d-4cdff7c04380@sokolov.eu.org> <78be6869-375c-02a8-498b-7446287ab97d@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <0136de5b-a198-4ebf-8a12-baa2424c431d@Spark> <6b0b3d22-f3e6-a3bd-b04c-af15e5498560@sokolov.eu.org> <07e8f287-3da1-4890-817f-4daf945c8d12@Spark> From: Christian von der Ropp In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink for Tonga? X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2022 13:50:46 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------zNjR0RNTKFGMfnSwKcPyCkQ9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit And to make things even more complicated Starlink also have to avoid emissions within a certain angle towards O3b's satellites in MEO (relatively easy as they are close to the geostationary arc) and to all its LEO competitors with higher ITU priority which would be OneWeb, Telesat Lightspeed, KLEO Connect and before all these a potential European LEO constellation should it use Thales' ITU filings (MCSAT-2 LEO-x) - see https://www.itu.int/en/ITU-R/space/workshops/danang-2015/Documents/Presentations/Yvon%20Henri%20-%20NGSO%20Issues.pdf The more satellites these LEO competitors deploy, the more in-line events will occur during which Starlink will have to seize emissions - a so far underestimated issue that could severely impair coverage and service availability. Am 08.02.2022 um 11:11 schrieb Ulrich Speidel: > > That's an interesting aspect that I hadn't considered! A quick > back-of-the-envelope reveals that the GSO arc is at least 15 times > beyond a Starlink LEO satellite, and with Friis propagation, that's > about 23 dB in terms of difference in path loss, and thus not as much > separation as you'd want. Under ITU regs you're competing with noise, > not signal ;-) > > Either way, I know it's a contested topic even at the regulatory level. > > Tonga is at around 20 deg south so could be using anything from north > just over zenith to further south, but as I've pointed out, there are > other issues here also. > > On 8/02/2022 9:58 pm, Mike Puchol wrote: >> The GSO satellite operators, due to the fact that they have been >> there for eons, plus they cannot move the satellites around, are at a >> disadvantage with NGSO operators such as Starlink, when it comes to >> using the same shared spectrum. The Ku band downlink spectrum >> Starlink uses is the same as your satellite TV, thus, if your Dishy >> was inline with a Starlink satellite and the line towards the GSO >> arc, the satellite would kill all satellite TV in your area. >> >> The ITU in its article 22 specifies how NGSO operators must protect >> GSO operators, by not generating interference above certain power >> levels to or from the GSO arc. For Dishy, this means it cannot >> transmit anywhere between the GSO arc elevation and +18° (up), -18° >> (down). >> >> In Barcelona, the GSO arc due South sits at around 43° in elevation, >> thus, my Dishy cannot transmit between 25° and 61° in elevation due >> South. However, the protection band begins around an azimuth of 120°, >> up to around 240°. >> >> In the Equator, the GSO protection band starts due East, and goes all >> the way across the sky due West. It also takes out 37° of visible sky >> at zenith. >> >> Hope this helps! >> >> Best, >> >> Mike >> On Feb 8, 2022, 09:49 +0100, Daniel AJ Sokolov >> , wrote: >>> On 2022-02-08 at 01:47, Mike Puchol wrote: >>>> the biggest impact on Fiji and Tonga is the GSO protection, which >>>> takes out 36° of usable sky, all the way from East to West. >>> >>> Ho Mike, >>> >>> would you please be so kind to explain that a bit more? >>> >>> Thank you >>> Daniel >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Starlink mailing list >>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >> > -- > **************************************************************** > Dr. Ulrich Speidel > > School of Computer Science > > Room 303S.594 (City Campus) > Ph: (+64-9)-373-7599 ext. 85282 > > The University of Auckland > ulrich@cs.auckland.ac.nz > http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ > **************************************************************** > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink -- M +49.179.3695000 T +49.7071.538720 F +49.7071.538722 Ecvdr@vdr.net Wwww.vdr.net --------------zNjR0RNTKFGMfnSwKcPyCkQ9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
And to make things even more complicated Starlink also have to avoid emissions within a certain angle towards O3b's satellites in MEO (relatively easy as they are close to the geostationary arc) and to all its LEO competitors with higher ITU priority which would be OneWeb, Telesat Lightspeed, KLEO Connect and before all these a potential European LEO constellation should it use Thales' ITU filings (MCSAT-2 LEO-x) - see https://www.itu.int/en/ITU-R/space/workshops/danang-2015/Documents/Presentations/Yvon%20Henri%20-%20NGSO%20Issues.pdf

The more satellites these LEO competitors deploy, the more in-line events will occur during which Starlink will have to seize emissions - a so far underestimated issue that could severely impair coverage and service availability.

Am 08.02.2022 um 11:11 schrieb Ulrich Speidel:

That's an interesting aspect that I hadn't considered! A quick back-of-the-envelope reveals that the GSO arc is at least 15 times beyond a Starlink LEO satellite, and with Friis propagation, that's about 23 dB in terms of difference in path loss, and thus not as much separation as you'd want. Under ITU regs you're competing with noise, not signal ;-)

Either way, I know it's a contested topic even at the regulatory level.

Tonga is at around 20 deg south so could be using anything from north just over zenith to further south, but as I've pointed out, there are other issues here also.

On 8/02/2022 9:58 pm, Mike Puchol wrote:
The GSO satellite operators, due to the fact that they have been there for eons, plus they cannot move the satellites around, are at a disadvantage with NGSO operators such as Starlink, when it comes to using the same shared spectrum. The Ku band downlink spectrum Starlink uses is the same as your satellite TV, thus, if your Dishy was inline with a Starlink satellite and the line towards the GSO arc, the satellite would kill all satellite TV in your area.

The ITU in its article 22 specifies how NGSO operators must protect GSO operators, by not generating interference above certain power levels to or from the GSO arc. For Dishy, this means it cannot transmit anywhere between the GSO arc elevation and +18° (up), -18° (down). 

In Barcelona, the GSO arc due South sits at around 43° in elevation, thus, my Dishy cannot transmit between 25° and 61° in elevation due South. However, the protection band begins around an azimuth of 120°, up to around 240°.

In the Equator, the GSO protection band starts due East, and goes all the way across the sky due West. It also takes out 37° of visible sky at zenith.

Hope this helps!

Best,

Mike
On Feb 8, 2022, 09:49 +0100, Daniel AJ Sokolov <daniel@sokolov.eu.org>, wrote:
On 2022-02-08 at 01:47, Mike Puchol wrote:
the biggest impact on Fiji and Tonga is the GSO protection, which
takes out 36° of usable sky, all the way from East to West.

Ho Mike,

would you please be so kind to explain that a bit more?

Thank you
Daniel
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