From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 39CF63CB40; Wed, 29 Mar 2023 15:23:52 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1680117821; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=g7BusiRNWaAo14Pf4vLvXV66byQIsIWS8HdxTf7lzu8=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=MUPMoH88UEqdBc8IzppO/KeL98jvVi98cTuzxUdyVGzffpMez7gvjz2fIigTKLMxC HUArVok/Q7gUDNTXwmmipNhHFCk0o4UXPPO7ISps34LU1dXnGbhCjO65AKgva73/N6 zOTzg3AM5AF3FBUvEQCulaVl6cuf+Nw2oiC3Me7OrY2xycfEOSu9TE9QHZhiFpWu6o LZ3IDzaB+kX8Y3UEwBu2DFV0OcCKtbXw47m+hKfhKlWZi4QsdzXH22dstY0ejjxqUX KpbIicpJFsVr6lrADcrahHAlp4ae83UTPioc/epy8ZrNe7kunoccC76E//xAkNLwhV y9LUL8xoOVeJg== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([77.6.39.1]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MJVHU-1q1Tj30ygi-00Jsm7; Wed, 29 Mar 2023 21:23:41 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.2\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 21:23:39 +0200 Cc: Frantisek Borsik , David Lang , Dave Taht via Starlink , libreqos , Larry Press , rjmcmahon , bloat Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <11F23B37-4794-486B-9434-08A1CEF8972A@gmx.de> References: <1d6c10c9a692bb3f2869fb1b40fa449a@rjmcmahon.com> <569691b3e7dfc57bbf98c4fc168fc6cf@rjmcmahon.com> <2885829.1679221616@dyas> <20230321001019.GA4531@sunf68.rd.bbc.co.uk> <4295238B-FA57-49B6-B57B-78FFB2603B90@gmx.de> <8301258b8fffa18bd14279bff043dd03@rjmcmahon.com> <43bcbc338aecb44a1bef49489ab6f9c8@rjmcmahon.com> <60e70b637df76234639780ab08f25d82@rjmcmahon.com> <9edd011a1a6615470b34e0837896a15f@rjmcmahon.com> <6EB62755-EF23-44BA-B2FF-66FAC708653D@gmx.de> <6qnq34os-3qss-s4q7-s286-2s49q890q920@ynat.uz> <27aea5070eeb1b1535f3e75489295feb@rjmcmahon.com> <08526EAC-7EA3-4BFA-A231-B2935E09C8AC@gmx.de> To: =?utf-8?Q?Dave_T=C3=A4ht?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.2) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Ktz/4PdUy90Pk/pSfopQ7ASfAN1s/7y55zaLjalSLz7AVGfOBY2 9MXquMqWJndJM3OxaifEao5yQH1m678dZNvezU/YpDwiv3amXq3N9omZzjMDiNOS1hHs9Rn djpHDIBkPrGKfjsFI3P5QejbISJZWAeYWKJwLWRUrkrfehHVeHP//EpHJPWUdYH9MF8c0aL Om3OuJZOdLx6d0C82iP4w== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:GvOdLs4AWz4=;/MUiM3gcbKcJfD9g55WlN7g95+k erWgAeBRTGGErZIjyXkq65iFO5hoezTieM+4+8tJPh8GV2a203jbUWOeMLBNLzPeBpXfxKUUs f8kYYtyeWU6hPDaFAh55JwVeCeLBhQvZH3uLxDLma2CqxpuxQ6A4WIPYGnKgyj/pnN8Mmw/x/ XFb+zKR1S4JoRuoMGJ98nVo3lHvJcimvu1vdFhlvX5vD+O/k9/4qyk3p5cuvoVrRJb2PpCOIJ OjGi/SNH1bA55DMy+OoU6R1I0VwGGrWfZz0cFRfKP4hREOxH/qVe3o4LOPIQa7RFeC4Ybfe2/ v5vrdHeFpbKY1YPHRhxzG1V9u/5lB8D4E4DULrTL3u4J/nAgP0bmRYkeBanZxDCpC3GS/Hr8I VpnGo8pikRAMm74XaWQZBp8HiFwFqR3aiBO5S0Ndhx7iwBeGQ7vvfihMGyv6ZvjcGyjsvo34l U7tyxT/Cf0DBHOg5zfccYMs7LTj8J075ViQjI3M9H1OXx9GH1ZGpDNbtDcknMbgHnQl9pbXLh Mw4xorSquX3u1gpDanNleQxOLWLB10E1dGi7DhiXEIjiJiSB7fU+7U37YZY+ClGJLQAna6FZI JF4ljAYUyHCGJGO6mofqXiMZT2eIq+u5anJZNIm4sfo/C5qkwy5E/xv+fig7XmV9fxY9qtk/u WFAMf49QGL30U7syyH+UK5YVKQtfOS5xAZuIyevruW72xvu4Cp0dAjBs34Mpl3HCNvf9JMxsN O9rfedXm/Tgb65tfl+1AfSDaoIpBIU3p8SZXSL/hD0HY2OT4ryARL9w4Cz3VaJ4p1v1px+K1o BV783bNHKzMmhCBJzf9uchM1XpGEt5ns7mUMqjZ82IsgFxWW8RT/BGRzPHzz18frb+2hy0NbH lYvLckNnZ5Zz4T3RnB1IXoblQAykF80vNItxHo6a5HjqhTFnLHtNnrs+TlGvfF322K/QGq1GW GK2Jiw== Subject: Re: [Starlink] [LibreQoS] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 19:23:52 -0000 Hi Dave, edited down to a single point > On Mar 29, 2023, at 16:57, Dave Taht wrote: > [...] > Fiber is great for long distances, it is great in high density > environments, and it is also great within a datacenter or internet > exchange point. As for to the home, I'm still of two minds regarding > GPON vs active ethernet, I vastly prefer the idea of an interoperable > network with active fiber ethernet gear you can get at best buy, but > nearly everyone with actual deployment experience is saying gpon... > [...] > -- > AMA March 31: = https://www.broadband.io/c/broadband-grant-events/dave-taht > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC I agree with you, fully standardized ethernet over PtP fiber is = preferable from an end-user perspective. The PONs really are making = inroads for a number of reasons, that mostly are attractive to those = deploying them (and that seem to be related mostly to cost). The good thing is, that at least GPON and XGS-PON (where I = bothered to read up a bit, oh boy, ITU documents are not reader = friendly) seem "good enough", and deploying even those requires pulling = the hottest chestnuts out of the fire (per dwelling unit fiber = deployment), so any switch back to a fully point-to-point network in the = future (should that ever be required) should be considerably cheaper = than the initial PON roll-out. However I predict that PON will be good = enough for quite a while....=