From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp15.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp15.rno.apple.com [17.179.253.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2F2633B2A4 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2022 20:12:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pps.filterd (rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp15.rno.apple.com [127.0.0.1]) by rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp15.rno.apple.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 258NtrSq003154; Wed, 8 Jun 2022 17:12:54 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=apple.com; h=content-type : mime-version : subject : from : in-reply-to : date : cc : content-transfer-encoding : message-id : references : to; s=20180706; bh=laWmMr9VZlDg7U6ZhL48kf36rMaooQunwB9o0oBOMqw=; b=nR58zKgDxE4JP7R8oy4g2ekHFZL5Uyxr1UF1H5SDaTYut58lrLGAg2RPv+N7jJeQNLC8 hm5iNhdHHrG2bLzuNPVTb1MxIFMWNjYhTCQSe6t4Ki+vamQtppfN+48jHI5iB962z3rE 4Z2fGOgMMloCRhBYukdlIMq9mvWGHxjuAWboSaF3Cyq5IYL55dqvYFNEFYn+dqDSclzV k1kZJix5YeEInkZCTsd63fpMpDDvD/Vcj8+K2jz+YIrZ7clGp2diBbZLWZSBkghGpYp2 NJ8yykBXoPXBaOdtQ1XA474dY2ZJIwa3Y5KSAE12Un/Vf8dx4e1FmWPrxV1o9sdKMeIU yA== Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com [10.225.203.149]) by rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp15.rno.apple.com with ESMTP id 3gg4yd62y4-9 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 08 Jun 2022 17:12:54 -0700 Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com [17.179.253.15]) by rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.18.20220407 64bit (built Apr 7 2022)) with ESMTPS id <0RD600UU0OLIVCI0@rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com>; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 17:12:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from process_milters-daemon.rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.18.20220407 64bit (built Apr 7 2022)) id <0RD600W00OIGHQ00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com>; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 17:12:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Va-A: X-Va-T-CD: 8d69d234f1daef4dad02bbb4925c65c2 X-Va-E-CD: 8ea6c43ad14b395656ec6f41d9d5bef0 X-Va-R-CD: 4695802bb0c484e578524e18487cbb49 X-Va-CD: 0 X-Va-ID: 7f27c1a6-0b6b-493d-880b-36a7cd99696c X-V-A: X-V-T-CD: 8d69d234f1daef4dad02bbb4925c65c2 X-V-E-CD: 8ea6c43ad14b395656ec6f41d9d5bef0 X-V-R-CD: 4695802bb0c484e578524e18487cbb49 X-V-CD: 0 X-V-ID: 6092348d-f2d0-4332-b688-baf889e36d75 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.517, 18.0.874 definitions=2022-06-08_04:2022-06-07, 2022-06-08 signatures=0 Received: from [17.234.66.235] (unknown [17.234.66.235]) by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.18.20220407 64bit (built Apr 7 2022)) with ESMTPSA id <0RD6009G0OLGHN00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com>; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 17:12:54 -0700 (PDT) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Stuart Cheshire In-reply-to: Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2022 17:12:52 -0700 Cc: "David P. Reed" , starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-id: <1223D984-F410-4457-A2F5-471C5F638BF9@apple.com> References: <1654714026.72728578@apps.rackspace.com> To: warren ponder X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.517, 18.0.874 definitions=2022-06-08_04:2022-06-07, 2022-06-08 signatures=0 Subject: Re: [Starlink] FQ_Codel X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 00:12:57 -0000 On 8 Jun 2022, at 12:12, warren ponder wrote: > So this is really helpful. Is it fair to say then that end users with = SQM and fq_codel on a Starlink connection should essentially not turn on = SQM.and.just leave it off? My advice is that people should have SQM (e.g., fq_codel) enabled = anywhere it is available. For devices that aren=E2=80=99t the bottleneck = hop on a path it won=E2=80=99t make any difference, but it won=E2=80=99t = hurt. And if the network topology is such that it does become the = bottleneck hop, even briefly, SQM will avoid having a big queue build up = there. One example is Wi-Fi. If you have 50Mb/s Internet service and 802.11ac = Wi-Fi in the house, your Wi-Fi is unlikely to be the bottleneck. But if = you walk out to the garden and the Wi-Fi rate drops to 40Mb/s, then = suddenly bufferbloat in the AP can bite you, leading to bi-modal network = usability, that abruptly falls off a cliff the moment your Wi-Fi rate = drops below your Internet service rate. I think this is a large part of = the reason behind the enthusiasm these days for =E2=80=9Cmesh=E2=80=9D = Wi-Fi systems -- you need to blanket your home with sufficient density = of Wi-Fi access points to ensure that they never become the bottleneck = hop and expose their incompetent queue management. If you get 11Mb/s in = the garden that should be plenty to stream music, but throw in some = egregious bufferbloat and a perfectly good 11Mb/s rate becomes unusably = bad. Ironically, if you pay more for faster Internet service then the = problem gets worse, not better, because the effective usable range of = your bufferbloated Wi-Fi access points shrinks as the rate coming into = the house goes up. Stuart Cheshire