From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 831953B2A4; Sun, 2 Apr 2023 07:39:37 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1680435571; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=wrpJQnK0z8boUcQPNg0vmLFl0psQFyX8pKdAjQcTVlU=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=nN3flM/0AeJT8vC/0hYB4V32X3dfj663dKYR8x63KBDRzBivCaXXArpckZLummb8O ZPJZ/Tx2cibxO+srcls1RHUK6WJpmy0Z7ODmIBtgP1Z7bi2KoOoKeJujUg+TBht6I2 YUzLTGwL7eba2/BBXwsyBDxnqy4CxpdnLTExbAxsw3x9Mq1VJSQec1stJwmTerjE97 YEQAIvYGv0t0RbjYk2eCIlwmqIBzttHc3K/dV+M8IrNOMWzZyVxBEGIyEeAOlcpbVP kj9jXV1gaIDGl6V5Fkg3QHHsBN4QO25fv120Ezw76hhmHpFOYblTlmnbSZTzcLUCdR yJ3p10n1cPwOQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([77.3.68.204]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mnpns-1qCCK03pCU-00pKEi; Sun, 02 Apr 2023 13:39:31 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.2\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2023 13:39:29 +0200 Cc: Rich Brown , David Lang , Dave Taht via Starlink , dan , libreqos Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <123DEDF7-F6D3-4039-9D00-02E1DC7B11ED@gmx.de> References: <1d6c10c9a692bb3f2869fb1b40fa449a@rjmcmahon.com> <43bcbc338aecb44a1bef49489ab6f9c8@rjmcmahon.com> <60e70b637df76234639780ab08f25d82@rjmcmahon.com> <9edd011a1a6615470b34e0837896a15f@rjmcmahon.com> <6EB62755-EF23-44BA-B2FF-66FAC708653D@gmx.de> <6qnq34os-3qss-s4q7-s286-2s49q890q920@ynat.uz> <27aea5070eeb1b1535f3e75489295feb@rjmcmahon.com> <08526EAC-7EA3-4BFA-A231-B2935E09C8AC@gmx.de> <716ECAAD-E2EE-4647-9E73-D60BF8BF9C1E@searls.com> <829A9509-0B4D-438E-BB59-1592C0B27C98@gmail.com> To: Dave Collier-Brown X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.2) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:8JtxIgxLK/FiT0G/jvEKGMuNDjpSI9vBprmdXdM/SUyUjnkxIeB 8bSk18dZqfKsJYamCwKJyT4LC5EQ2fAY3h4jrc7FB6Npjk5crJ/3PRh7Va+zE2RzuT5eqyS DjYP4qU1gVwZ0ShmXQRks7y19dC7WWEy6ApARnm2qqzeb83FqbGrVS8H5s9+V7Y7l0OGpjY kYWjKZ+fLPvsCv13IeccQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:PmlZyeK80u0=;ZDsBnJrZJPtBkZ+0gJhpv/HZxO9 tKD7tPYPKn5y0xuusvXdi9vUSBjasdYgn4nwGOlGPpUsKxGbF6DGAa/VkoM1JkbJ6g3/hMLYs SAu1a14AfrtTIMgwFdm8m/mEFtJzFUsqL0UySV8Lnnm4KEskzh7yHIPfaPsAABBkFeSqetO0q cGaAlUxeJ3gMTq0QNad1Lb9J6j3y7RVNv7oGonOyvH2xbt+tFsFWLwO6KiYk4MNLjvBvfcS3O SBQtzCyoVSuOsqCa8q3OP8DM1/6Fk0gv7wgmi3sbr175zCgtjRuxUpnxVrwaYZ8idF8u2BGyv 9O5AUOJYcrvqNCfSDmiMtrV3Tw664S+SvGiC1Gt+ra3OMn+gU6zCqgENsmvfQ8CKt2Zo9+59f HcwB13MBw/k1XcVYDW9A9eIoRkhHrZwyEu59evVQeHtyyYXdBOss63kdeCqrxc4z9c5c4x412 jpFvdV2E10W23sAmeLbX1iiFWv41my49L68SSnmMrGbVAxKUgGwtb8eyYVrFCSqSzx2vNGcNo f79/YT3p2WNdG7OGan8mD7EED99YGrU7TgrZnMmdNv0q3zgzq80gkaKqMnGrAEE1/lCpg71iF mN0ojAtYi621MCmTUW/lBqhrqBhD85fg9OxuWVr7jw9SnblKRXuXFeUQ/1z0VSx4Ol85M6c1K PiP68RMT3YOLrz6v1fq/KwldJwQoQZ2irB6HN5EaRInraxsu9WJuSFX/enUicS5IAfW/StNEb AOx1UagLCUag4XRBx//3tY7NLlUSkMYdGS8e0d2NPIk9+Zt06MMRwJZVgN/t3btfonNOBTTeg O/f4PIQshRKINnhZ+ppJQaqsQckkrrQB4Skbm+VAGHoVFIRwZZG5gZrsAVV4C70m0oUmxWh5s emgwfSbUduHv9uXmy9CyRMS5kmoA/Sc+4oBVaqeex+YA+CCEAqn6pR9vTI3mGnekSeulTr3zW ZZiopzDJgkxEE+LsO7iP14XvU4U= Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] [LibreQoS] Enabling a production model X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2023 11:39:37 -0000 Hi Dave, > On Mar 29, 2023, at 21:11, Dave Collier-Brown via Bloat = wrote: >=20 > It can be worse than that: if a monopoly owns the poles, you're going = to have to bury your fibre. That will cost you something like $800,000 = per mile, more if you have to cross a road. >=20 > In my home town, Chatham, Ontario, the local ISP is installing fibre = underground because the duopoly of cable and telephone companies won't = rent them pole space, much less bandwidth on their existing fibre. And that is why we can't have nice things... IMHO this also = nicely demonstrates that giving monopoly power to private companies has = side-effects. Side-effects that can be remedied by sufficiently strong = rules and regulations (which companies fight tooth and claw against). > This works for Chatham and Blenheim and a few others, but not for the = smaller towns of Bothwell or Dresden, much less any of the villages or = individual farms. They're out of luck. Yes, it seems pretty clear that the way to assert near universal = internet access is not relaying on "the free market" alone, and likely = requires not treating each individual link as individual project that = needs to come out even (over a reasonable amortization horizon). Now, I am sure there are ISPs around that do not abuse their = position and that aim at giving even rural users internet access at = acceptable cost, but the big incumbents that deliver internet to the = masses, in my limited experience do not excel at that unless "prodded" = by rules and regulations. Regards Sebastian P.S.: dropped the bloat list, trying to appease Jan ;) >=20 > --dave >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 3/29/23 13:46, Rich Brown wrote: >> [EXTERNAL] This email originated from outside the organization. Do = not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and = know the content is safe. >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Mar 29, 2023, at 1:13 PM, David Lang via Starlink = wrote: >>>=20 >>> The problem is that laying cable (or provisioning wifi access to = cover the area) is expensive, and if you try to have multiple different = companies doing it, they each need a minimum density of users to make it = worth their while. >>=20 >> Yes, this stuff is expensive, Here is reasonably current = order-of-magnitude cost breakdown for a rural NH town nearby: >>=20 >> 1) $55,000 per road-mile to design the system, get licenses to = install on the utility poles, "make ready" (to check that the poles are = ready for new facilities) and to hang the fiber on the pole. Installing = coax would save $5K to $8K per mile. >>=20 >> 2) $2,000 to $4,000 per premise to install the drop from the utility = pole to the building, bring the fiber into the building and install the = router.=20 >>=20 >> 3) Pole rental (in NH) is about $10/pole/year. Divide miles of road = by 200 feet between poles to get an estimate of the number of poles. >>=20 >> So density of customers is critical for the business case. That's why = there are so many monopoly providers - it's costly to overbuild an = already served area. >>=20 > --=20 > David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify > System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest >=20 > dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com | -- Mark Twain >=20 > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER : This telecommunication, = including any and all attachments, contains confidential information = intended only for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any = dissemination, distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly = prohibited and is not a waiver of confidentiality. If you have received = this telecommunication in error, please notify the sender immediately by = return electronic mail and delete the message from your inbox and = deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not constitute an = express or implied agreement to conduct transactions by electronic = means, nor does it constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment or = an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms contained in this = telecommunication are subject to legal review and the completion of = formal documentation and are not binding until same is confirmed in = writing and has been signed by an authorized signatory. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat