From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA3BD3B29D for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2023 06:25:53 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1672917948; bh=ps5gcfhSz/W7O6mGyGou6M5yzfyWQvqjB2Hxqrx7K60=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=fgOF9duIvH91g5MoLM9CWpz/gP4U8dQm2whJJ/sQkIuHTKEJjzJ4RuJkAiecKHoFk 04hIxAf+mmWCU2xjSxwPrzGMd5EKXICE9gSFd0WAjYTZAnoVeL9Uq5ohPY6EJhM9t2 bYe52Z73kUBJTB0VjvjqePHtBO/f7IpcrTRF9Caewc01R9+GGOsZL0iZDjuLEO0I7O 0Jv/GP+b7ySr6QZt9iPsBHCpz9zjM9yckfsGRNUQuMHnVqGC62Yr2qrRRcFdTe91d1 hI3dhaSDPSup3213DdU3TEThjr3CWUZvWMmd3iiMT7i34tB65ix6SzAvbe7hRrdrjV CBwXsOvvchn/g== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MTABT-1pN3pL02UZ-00UXkQ; Thu, 05 Jan 2023 12:25:48 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.1\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: <15EBCC5BF2474AAB82C050259229B5FB@SRA6> Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2023 12:25:47 +0100 Cc: Dave Collier-Brown , starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <12C74FE9-3190-4088-A333-B90DFB8E3277@gmx.de> References: <845161E4-474C-44A9-92D4-1702748A3DA1@jonathanfoulkes.com> <82cfa31b-3694-7f6f-3f29-8de77559dd6f@indexexchange.com> <15EBCC5BF2474AAB82C050259229B5FB@SRA6> To: Dick Roy X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.1) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:RpPDfbU26h9Cq4YeDj/vgrGhZ7WdRW9mlZZTXUPYgqpka5Qhy91 cl5nigcWy3NJxYq758YNswVZtYO3obwzymYdfadHsZvSw9ka9Fc9Ve0zwbVtyJYzftpCBFg fy2HsPuvjo+59uJ97gqaRGZsC1XZsye0Ea8PYQABQK72FZqJE6rXFgw8MNuYpA9HuyKsLzX Pn7ww2C4UyPPJy39xQDLQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:sI//ECiBSow=;nvDYFC3TSIWTKrL3wayoXq0t1Iv bDHY+gxUIFDTTZuCoBji6Bx5Fh7bvmIS7Ay8N3u9sTsLGsUDKfEU8ejpOEMhmK99yWqZkxLn3 gW4gceOkCT7uybMVC547MJQn6IdJnXbtAqpVJ0m2iQkiu2vJagErDZ9xolB6duSp2CuPC+mrD 5pdADz+uRGDgXcVnZluSzrl+PZ6JBKnqs780wRzDITt6OfT79ILQyVjZPXgfQgZlItn1nBF4T EHBn92f3nMiJwmqlWE70k+wSbgvZwQ3AnXkt03DeQL0ybhzhSOsvLOt1jX2uAiVkXZwpmWo5a Its3wXSYfd8uPWT+CR9QuueW9Rh5hllwjTjLiff//RcGQaIgufN2iqwEIRpf/N7tSeyYDp2TG wRPCTxNZo8uuMc4RBhqRkD98mHWKGQNDnx0RWXNZRQByMMuuUF/Yl/ePk2fsmlt1EoqVW97st Zn5KdZnkf7vUgGuDx+X0+osf6f+kupGnMiqrFK2Hdb45qZx9vTmH8I9TEP/wUfekRuH22yaNt UzCbITawjz5rjMf8GzgoeaCq000EWRr7RehX6MYlWgktvCefmPpA8OH9U5WMPVwbSCSNrdOHt eHVD6+GekGtVzSl3m/JxQjZc4AHHt8YHyKbGuN7ReaqAjGBpSAn28CVRRxc2kUuKesOZXFr3k Jk5L04ajKL5qwpx7uvg8nfTcuwyvA8HXQsZYYMlLkzgnCyOyTZdVNE/UfnDFzn7Zh/qylIaXa qmzy0jisTGcTly6fNPqzXYlcHW8S1Vk4NSyNPtg94gz+XoZxLGqdsriQT+UQUmA00Li5JH7Ym f2MNKRQElyBsEBQVTI1mjs+u6TC2TUTZypY5QX4RS5bpCPVrB3lJEva6j6LCEf6/4A8Udapxt A22Q0IaS3TZkOlBwfwQT1CyNe5yPVOX7xG4z2TkAcm8JyHDFk+BLhk2WWiQN/9WwctVvdMx9h hE1w/p7DKsvImezgyaeiakbiHKE= Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] the grinch meets cloudflare's christmas present X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2023 11:25:54 -0000 Hi RR, > On Jan 5, 2023, at 04:11, Dick Roy via Starlink = wrote: >=20 > =20 > =20 > From: Starlink [mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On = Behalf Of Dave Collier-Brown via Starlink > Sent: Wednesday, January 4, 2023 6:48 PM > To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] the grinch meets cloudflare's christmas = present > =20 > I think using "speed" for "the inverse of delay" is pretty normal = English, if technically erroneous when speaking nerd or physicist. >=20 > [RR] I=E2=80=99ve not heard of that usage before. The units aren=E2=80=99= t commensurate either.=20 >=20 > Using it for volume? Arguably more like fraudulent... >=20 > [RR] I don=E2=80=99t think that was Bob=E2=80=99s intent. I think = =E2=80=9Cload volume=E2=80=9D was meant to be a metaphor for =E2=80=9Cnumb= er of bits/bytes=E2=80=9D being transported (=E2=80=9Cby the semi=E2=80=9D= ). =20 >=20 > That said, aren=E2=80=99t users these days educated on =E2=80=9Cgigs=E2=80= =9D which they intuitively understand to be Gigabits per second (or = Gbps)? Oddly enough, that is an expression of = =E2=80=9Cdata/information/communication rate=E2=80=9D in the appropriate = units with the nominal technically correct meaning. =20 [SM] Gigs would have the following confounds if used without a = proper definition: a) base10 or base2^10? b) giga-what? Bit or Byte c) Volume or capacity d) if capacity, minimal, average, or maximal? I note (again, sorry to sound like a broken record) that the national = regulatory agency for networks (Bundes-Netzagentur, short BNetzA) in = Germany has some detailed instructions about what information ISPs need = to supply to their potential customers pre-sale (see = https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Sachgebiete/Telek= ommunikation/Unternehmen_Institutionen/Anbieterpflichten/Kundenschutz/Tran= sparenzma=C3=9Fnahmen/Instruction_for_drawing_up_PIS.pdf?__blob=3Dpublicat= ionFile&v=3D1) where the headlines talk correctly about "data = transmission rates" but in the text they occasionally fall back to = "speed". They also state: "Data transmission rates must be given in = megabits per second (Mbit/s)." This is both in response to our "speed" discussion, but also one = potential way to clarify b) c) and d) above... given that is official = this probably also answers a) (base10 otherwise the text would be "Data = transmission rates must be given in mebibits per second (Mibit/s).") --Sebastian >=20 > RR >=20 > --dave >=20 > On 1/4/23 18:54, Bruce Perens via Starlink wrote: >> On the other hand, we would like to be comprehensible to normal = users, especially when we want them to press their providers to deal = with bufferbloat. Differences like speed and rate would go right over = their heads. >> =20 >> On Wed, Jan 4, 2023 at 1:16 PM Ulrich Speidel via Starlink = wrote: >>> The use of the term "speed" in communications used to be restricted = to the speed of light (or whatever propagation speed one happened to be = dealing with. Everything else was a "rate". Maybe I'm old-fashioned but = I think talking about "speed tests" muddies the waters rather a lot. >>> =20 >>> --=20 >>> ****************************************************************=20 >>> Dr. Ulrich Speidel=20 >>>=20 >>> Department of Computer Science=20 >>>=20 >>> Room 303S.594 >>> Ph: (+64-9)-373-7599 ext. 85282=20 >>>=20 >>> The University of Auckland=20 >>> u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz >>> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ >>> ****************************************************************=20 >>> From: Starlink on behalf of = rjmcmahon via Starlink >>> Sent: Thursday, January 5, 2023 9:02 AM >>> To: jf@jonathanfoulkes.com >>> Cc: Cake List ; IETF IPPM WG = ; libreqos ; Dave Taht = via Starlink ; Rpm = ; bloat >>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] the grinch meets cloudflare's = christmas present >>> =20 >>> Curious to why people keep calling capacity tests speed tests? A = semi at=20 >>> 55 mph isn't faster than a porsche at 141 mph because its load = volume is=20 >>> larger. >>>=20 >>> Bob >>> > HNY Dave and all the rest, >>> >=20 >>> > Great to see yet another capacity test add latency metrics to the >>> > results. This one looks like a good start. >>> >=20 >>> > Results from my Windstream DOCSIS 3.1 line (3.1 on download only, = up >>> > is 3.0) Gigabit down / 35Mbps up provisioning. Using an IQrouter = Pro >>> > (an i5 x86) with Cake set for 710/31 as this ISP can=E2=80=99t = deliver >>> > reliable low-latency unless you shave a good bit off the targets. = My >>> > local loop is pretty congested. >>> >=20 >>> > Here=E2=80=99s the latest Cloudflare test: >>> >=20 >>> >=20 >>> >=20 >>> >=20 >>> > And an Ookla test run just afterward: >>> >=20 >>> >=20 >>> >=20 >>> >=20 >>> > They are definitely both in the ballpark and correspond to other = tests >>> > run from the router itself or my (wired) MacBook Pro. >>> >=20 >>> > Cheers, >>> >=20 >>> > Jonathan >>> >=20 >>> >=20 >>> >> On Jan 4, 2023, at 12:26 PM, Dave Taht via Rpm=20 >>> >> wrote: >>> >>=20 >>> >> Please try the new, the shiny, the really wonderful test here: >>> >> https://speed.cloudflare.com/ >>> >>=20 >>> >> I would really appreciate some independent verification of >>> >> measurements using this tool. In my brief experiments it appears = - as >>> >> all the commercial tools to date - to dramatically understate the >>> >> bufferbloat, on my LTE, (and my starlink terminal is out being >>> >> hacked^H^H^H^H^H^Hworked on, so I can't measure that) >>> >>=20 >>> >> My test of their test reports 223ms 5G latency under load , where >>> >> flent reports over 2seconds. See comparison attached. >>> >>=20 >>> >> My guess is that this otherwise lovely new tool, like too many, >>> >> doesn't run for long enough. Admittedly, most web objects (their >>> >> target market) are small, and so long as they remain small and = not >>> >> heavily pipelined this test is a very good start... but I'm = pretty >>> >> sure cloudflare is used for bigger uploads and downloads than = that. >>> >> There's no way to change the test to run longer either. >>> >>=20 >>> >> I'd love to get some results from other networks (compared as = usual to >>> >> flent), especially ones with cake on it. I'd love to know if they >>> >> measured more minimum rtts that can be obtained with fq_codel or = cake, >>> >> correctly. >>> >>=20 >>> >> Love Always, >>> >> The Grinch >>> >>=20 >>> >> -- >>> >> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would = work: >>> >> = https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665= 607352320-FXtz >>> >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >>> >> = ________________= _______________________________ >>> >> Rpm mailing list >>> >> Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm >>> >=20 >>> >=20 >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Rpm mailing list >>> > Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Starlink mailing list >>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Starlink mailing list >>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>=20 >> =20 >> --=20 >> Bruce Perens K6BP >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > --=20 > David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify > System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest > dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com | -- Mark Twain > =20 > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER : This telecommunication, = including any and all attachments, contains confidential information = intended only for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any = dissemination, distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly = prohibited and is not a waiver of confidentiality. If you have received = this telecommunication in error, please notify the sender immediately by = return electronic mail and delete the message from your inbox and = deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not constitute an = express or implied agreement to conduct transactions by electronic = means, nor does it constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment or = an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms contained in this = telecommunication are subject to legal review and the completion of = formal documentation and are not binding until same is confirmed in = writing and has been signed by an authorized signatory. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink