From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (bobcat.rjmcmahon.com [45.33.58.123]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 73B8C3B2A4; Wed, 27 Sep 2023 23:33:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.rjmcmahon.com (bobcat.rjmcmahon.com [45.33.58.123]) by bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 797A51B25E; Wed, 27 Sep 2023 20:33:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 bobcat.rjmcmahon.com 797A51B25E DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rjmcmahon.com; s=bobcat; t=1695872015; bh=nIDpqHA/ljKagI9XYiCoTGAnpg9RcFs2AfViRgRO27c=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=Z92ySDB/L0tJZkAuPeN3eKfQLcWXBAl7BOessDK6b/EToNQv9xi3c3F8OaSkNwVgM NuwyvtXo4ek+ALRWsx3FiD2gpv/bGaemEzEhVLlMse71eRQ0uQ5svGWIogWvyrDERY Y3f2leWLNmZcho9UYHi8oFl6ZAacigskSLGYH9vc= MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2023 20:33:35 -0700 From: rjmcmahon To: Dave Taht Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink , bloat , Rpm , Jamal Hadi Salim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <142199846af097c36920b0d6845379e6@rjmcmahon.com> X-Sender: rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] net neutrality back in the news X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2023 03:33:36 -0000 Common Carriage goes way beyond our lifes. Eli Noam's write up in 1994 is a good one. http://www.columbia.edu/dlc/wp/citi/citinoam11.html Beyond Liberalization II: The Impending Doom of Common Carriage Eli M. Noam Professor of Finance and Economics Columbia University, Graduate School of Business March 15, 1994 I. Introduction 1 This article argues that the institution of common carriage, historically the foundation of the way telecommunications are delivered, will not survive. To clarify: "common carriers" (the misnomer often used to refer to telephone companies) will continue to exist, but the status under which they operate -- offering service on a non-discriminatory basis, neutral as to use and user -- will not. ... VII. A Contract-Carrier Based Telecommunications System? The conclusion of the analysis has been that common carriage will erode in time, and that a hybrid co-existence will not be stable. This is not to say that the common carriers qua carriers will become extinct; many of them will remain significant players, but they will conduct their business as contract carriers. But common carriage as such will disappear. This will not happen overnight, of course. Intermediate arrangements can buy several decades of transition time. But the basic dynamics will eventually assert themselves. This conclusion is reached with much regret, because the socially positive aspects of common carriage are strong, and because the absence to common carriage often means gatekeeper power. But we should not let preferences obscure the clarity of analysis. Bob > Jason just did a beautiful thread as to what was the original source > of the network neutrality > bittorrent vs voip bufferbloat blowup. > > https://twitter.com/jlivingood/status/1707078242857849244 > > Seeing all the political activity tied onto it since (and now again) > reminds of two families at war about an incident that had happened > generations and generations before, where the two sides no longer > remembered why they hated each other so, but just went on hating, and > not forgiving, and not moving on. > > Yes, there are entirely separate and additional NN issues, but the > technical problem of providing common carriage between two very > different network application types (voip/gaming vs file transfer) is > thoroughly solved now, and if only all sides recognised at least this > much, and made peace over it, and worked together to deploy those > solutions, maybe, just maybe, we could find mutually satisfactory > solutions to the other problems that plague the internet today, like > security, and the ipv6 rollout. > > If anyone here knows anyone more political, still vibrating with 10+ > years of outrage about NN on this fronts, on one side or the other, if > you could sit them down, over a beer, and try to explain that at the > start it was a technical problem nobody understood at the time, maybe > that would help.