From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pf1-x433.google.com (mail-pf1-x433.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::433]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 710CA3CB37 for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2022 15:38:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x433.google.com with SMTP id a29so2321964pfk.5 for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2022 12:38:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ieee.org; s=google; h=references:to:cc:in-reply-to:date:subject:mime-version:message-id :from:from:to:cc:subject:date; bh=DB/H8ZkRXN+vOh6yzaIzoNeXubH38R3mjxFT3pqxrAA=; b=WKzPj813jYOHU6V/WcDVr8M+rOPYwCvWVXmOQ4yKiRKWMvtbGPCenWoLBtkbcB/zxe U4TpiD9WqZyjWY8YaWzehtHaYAmHeBNI7F4dctqwbHqo3XUTKyEL2LqZ6oaGIxLlzoZk 39SJpUH5P4AIrMGlpA62dvT2sFuiKXoLqAvh4= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=references:to:cc:in-reply-to:date:subject:mime-version:message-id :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date; bh=DB/H8ZkRXN+vOh6yzaIzoNeXubH38R3mjxFT3pqxrAA=; b=S9Z4FaQwXvpqnjwwB9nqGJ0NJ8hkuqWZTqTaR0AwH6Yy695saq7hNqKpKrQTI8Hvs/ i8hfepTOSKEiUazm6ksoJgqxr3bRubIXJimi+Htdw6Zf1fZXxjwo27gFzk26A3HvMc2M QU4iMiUon6uD8/YHfl55JwDUCJio3zeIZr5oPytTvAFtssryp1WFvZZPiN/5fK1Nj5oJ ikKykDaonLeeYltOO18pky8JMBTfIn9atDyNdGatdIX8zztduO2B0Ag3xy+LdQQf44qO Em475gyPt+ZsAIOWJuWxuaAzI4vprHwl3dRIq8kTxJPsy5yyzrM9therVCp256JYkCDf TOOQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf2Z7AWKqxhmJHUXJSxA+PcRtNdJxxBUTA2zrmp+6sqgMOr2Twpl 4RyoM3Iz5zZOj6CEXqE651gCNA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM4PTsK3xB3tIAEZr4tLvel4OcupMPZMAvjXykx7H+I82K8HAEmo2ja/+LSUUl0oJh7uWdLfdw== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:958e:0:b0:54a:792d:bce4 with SMTP id z14-20020aa7958e000000b0054a792dbce4mr5065328pfj.25.1664480314199; Thu, 29 Sep 2022 12:38:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (dhcp-72-253-196-65.hawaiiantel.net. [72.253.196.65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f11-20020aa7968b000000b00541469775fesm40926pfk.138.2022.09.29.12.38.32 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 29 Sep 2022 12:38:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Eugene Y Chang Message-Id: <14B0D432-15BA-42AE-9D8D-1DF7E7E50402@ieee.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7D09B896-6BF5-436E-9948-04AC7E18686E"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.1\)) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2022 09:38:30 -1000 In-Reply-To: Cc: Eugene Chang , Sebastian Moeller , Dave Taht via Starlink To: David Lang References: <198D364D-DA0E-445A-8E13-FDA24486E30C@ieee.org> <39q83o29-4r63-2qn6-1s46-n97rq66qrpn6@ynat.uz> <34E90BC8-4843-4C03-8A74-B50AB2F22995@ieee.org> <9BBC901E-B98E-4C0D-BEEF-2F6D56AB27A3@gmx.de> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.1) Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2022 19:38:35 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7D09B896-6BF5-436E-9948-04AC7E18686E Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_285AC1CE-C903-4976-BF3E-3EDF30E78B31" --Apple-Mail=_285AC1CE-C903-4976-BF3E-3EDF30E78B31 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hmmmm=E2=80=A6.. is ground station positioning more about geographic = topology or managing subscriber density? I suspect it is easier to = manage subscriber density (and aggregate traffic) by building higher = capacity ground stations than by distributing ground stations. Gene ---------------------------------------------- Eugene Chang IEEE Senior Life Member eugene.chang@ieee.org 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu) > On Sep 28, 2022, at 11:14 PM, David Lang wrote: >=20 > On Thu, 29 Sep 2022, Sebastian Moeller wrote: >=20 >>> On Sep 29, 2022, at 09:50, Eugene Y Chang via Starlink = wrote: >>>=20 >>> Good point=E2=80=A6 that sure makes matching new capacity to new = subscribers really hard. >>=20 >> [SM] Or easy: "just" add more satellites ;) some of the added = capacity should also end up at new subscribers... SCNR >=20 > yep, which is what they are doing. ;-) >=20 > there is some that they can do in terms of the ground station = positioning, density, and connectivity. >=20 > David Lang >=20 >> Regards >> Sebastian >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Gene >>> ---------------------------------------------- >>> Eugene Chang >>> IEEE Senior Life Member >>> eugene.chang@ieee.org >>> 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu) >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On Sep 28, 2022, at 6:29 PM, David Lang wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> that strip of land is different every orbit, a given satellite = doesn't pass over the same land each orbit. >>>>=20 >>>> David Lang >>>>=20 >>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022, Eugene Y Chang wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2022 14:40:35 -1000 >>>>> From: Eugene Y Chang >>>>> To: David Lang >>>>> Cc: Eugene Chang , Dotzero = , >>>>> Dave Taht via Starlink >>>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering >>>>> Yes and no. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Yes they can beef up the constellation, one section at a time. = (For a given launch, the are enhancing a particular orbit.) >>>>>=20 >>>>> Depending on your definition of =E2=80=9Cone area=E2=80=9D when = you say =E2=80=9Cnot in any one area=E2=80=9D. >>>>> Technically they would beef up an area in the shape of strips, = where the strip is the ground under the orbit of the additional (new) = satellites. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Sorry, when I say =E2=80=9Cadd service to an area=E2=80=9D, it = implies adding coverage to strips of land, the land under the new = satellite orbit. >>>>>=20 >>>>> https://satellitemap.space/?constellation=3Dstarlink = >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Gene >>>>> ---------------------------------------------- >>>>> Eugene Chang >>>>> IEEE Senior Life Member >>>>> eugene.chang@ieee.org >>>>> 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu) >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Sep 28, 2022, at 1:35 PM, David Lang wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> The Starlink satellites are in low orbit (<90 min), so you beef = up the contellation overall, not in any one area. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> David Lang >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022, Eugene Y Chang via Starlink wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2022 13:07:43 -1000 >>>>>>> From: Eugene Y Chang via Starlink = >>>>>>> Reply-To: Eugene Y Chang >>>>>>> To: Dotzero >>>>>>> Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering >>>>>>> What is the definition and differences between regular and best = effort service? >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Creating two bookings queue, wait list and best effort = subscribers, the best effort subscribers are more =E2=80=9Creal=E2=80=9D. = With that, treating best effort subscribers as a (more) "real customer" = backlog, it would be a good way to prioritize where to expand the = constellation (i.e. where to add capacity). >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Gene >>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> Eugene Chang >>>>>>> IEEE Senior Life Member >>>>>>> eugene.chang@ieee.org >>>>>>> 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu) >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> On Sep 28, 2022, at 9:53 AM, Dotzero via Starlink = wrote: >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> I've been on the wait list for almost 10 months and just = received an email that I can sign up for a "best efforts" offering. = Seeing as they also indicated the estimated time for regular service is = mid-2023, I decided to go with it (You don't lose your place on the wait = list). You can also "pause" the best effort service so I don't really = have anything to lose. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Has anyone had experience with this offering? Any input = appreciated. If it makes a difference, location is Central East Ohio. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> According to = https://www.starlink.com/legal/documents/DOC-1002-69942-69?regionCode=3DUS= = , latency will be comparable to regular service, down will be 5-100mbs = and up will be 1-10mps unless service is deprioritized due to = congestion. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Thanks in advance. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Starlink mailing list >>>>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Starlink mailing list >>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Starlink mailing list >>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>=20 --Apple-Mail=_285AC1CE-C903-4976-BF3E-3EDF30E78B31 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hmmmm=E2=80=A6.. is ground station positioning more about = geographic topology or managing subscriber density? I suspect it is = easier to manage subscriber density (and aggregate traffic) by building = higher capacity ground stations than by distributing ground stations.

Gene
----------------------------------------------
Eugene Chang
IEEE Senior Life = Member
eugene.chang@ieee.org
781-799-0233 (in = Honolulu)



On Sep 28, 2022, at 11:14 PM, David Lang <david@lang.hm> = wrote:

On Thu, 29 Sep 2022, Sebastian Moeller wrote:
On Sep 29, 2022, at 09:50, Eugene Y Chang via Starlink = <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
Good point=E2=80=A6 that sure makes matching new capacity to = new subscribers really hard.

= [SM] Or easy: "just" add more satellites ;) some of the added = capacity should also end up at new subscribers... SCNR

yep, which is what they are = doing. ;-)

there is some that they can do = in terms of the ground station positioning, density, and = connectivity.

David Lang

Regards
= Sebastian



Gene
----------------------------------------------
Eugene Chang
IEEE Senior Life Member
eugene.chang@ieee.org
781-799-0233 (in = Honolulu)



On Sep 28, 2022, at 6:29 = PM, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:

that strip of land is different every orbit, a given = satellite doesn't pass over the same land each orbit.

David Lang

On Wed, 28 Sep 2022, = Eugene Y Chang wrote:

Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2022 14:40:35 -1000
From: Eugene Y Chang <eugene.chang@ieee.org>
To: David Lang <david@lang.hm>
Cc: Eugene = Chang <eugene.chang@ieee.org>, Dotzero = <dotzero@gmail.com>,
  Dave Taht via = Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: = Re: [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering
Yes and = no.

Yes they can beef up the constellation, = one section at a time. (For a given launch, the are enhancing a = particular orbit.)

Depending on your = definition of =E2=80=9Cone area=E2=80=9D when you say =E2=80=9Cnot in = any one area=E2=80=9D.
Technically they would beef up an = area in the shape of strips, where the strip is the ground under the = orbit of the additional (new) satellites.

Sorry, when I say =E2=80=9Cadd service to an area=E2=80=9D, = it implies adding coverage to strips of land, the land under the new = satellite orbit.

https://satellitemap.space/?constellation=3Dstarlink = <https://satellitemap.space/?constellation=3Dstarlink>


Gene
----------------------------------------------
Eugene Chang
IEEE Senior Life Member
eugene.chang@ieee.org
781-799-0233 (in = Honolulu)



On Sep 28, 2022, at 1:35 = PM, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:

The Starlink satellites are in low orbit (<90 min), so you = beef up the contellation overall, not in any one area.

David Lang

On Wed, 28 Sep 2022, = Eugene Y Chang via Starlink wrote:

Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2022 = 13:07:43 -1000
From: Eugene Y Chang via Starlink = <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Reply-To: Eugene Y = Chang <eugene.chang@ieee.org>
To: Dotzero = <dotzero@gmail.com>
Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink = <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: Re: = [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering
What is the = definition and differences between regular and best effort service?

Creating two bookings queue, wait list and = best effort subscribers, the best effort subscribers are more = =E2=80=9Creal=E2=80=9D. With that, treating best effort subscribers as a = (more) "real customer" backlog, it would be a good way to prioritize = where to expand the constellation (i.e. where to add capacity).

Gene
----------------------------------------------
Eugene Chang
IEEE Senior Life Member
eugene.chang@ieee.org
781-799-0233 (in = Honolulu)



On Sep 28, 2022, at 9:53 = AM, Dotzero via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> = wrote:

I've been on the wait list for = almost 10 months and just received an email that I can sign up for a = "best efforts" offering. Seeing as they also indicated the estimated = time for regular service is mid-2023, I decided to go with it (You don't = lose your place on the wait list). You can also "pause" the best effort = service so I don't really have anything to lose.

Has anyone had experience with this offering? Any input = appreciated. If it makes a difference, location is Central East Ohio.

According to = https://www.starlink.com/legal/documents/DOC-1002-69942-69?regionCode=3DUS= = <https://www.starlink.com/legal/documents/DOC-1002-69942-69?regionCode=3D= US>, latency will be comparable to regular service, down will be = 5-100mbs and up will be 1-10mps unless service is deprioritized due to = congestion.

Thanks in advance.

Mike

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Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

_______________________________________________Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink


_______________________________________________
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Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink


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