[Starlink] "Interesting set of developments with Starlink. Musk says they will support "international aid orgs" in Gaza, Israel now says they will use "all available means" to stop SpaceX from doing so.

[Starlink] "Interesting set of developments with Starlink. Musk says they will support "international aid orgs" in Gaza, Israel now says they will use "all available means" to stop SpaceX from doing so.

[the keyboard of geoff goodfellow]

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➔➔https://twitter.com/dburbach/status/1718638348812595660

-- 
Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com
living as The Truth is True

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Re: [Starlink] "Interesting set of developments with Starlink. Musk says they will support "international aid orgs" in Gaza, Israel now says they will use "all available means" to stop SpaceX from doing so.

[Dave Taht]

I think that the internet should stay up, connecting people to people,
through all the conflicts we may ever have. The mails kept running -
although censored - all through world war two - the red cross, allowed
by all sides, to keep it's relief missions running, the churches
(mostly) doing their job to console the weary...

Many other orgs, like the ITU, and the IETF, are committed to the
continued free exchange of information, no matter what.

https://www.itu.int/en/about/Pages/default.aspx

I am happy to see a worldwide ISP committed to the same principles.

On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 9:07 AM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> ➔➔https://twitter.com/dburbach/status/1718638348812595660
>
> --
> Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com
> living as The Truth is True
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink



-- 
Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos

Re: [Starlink] "Interesting set of developments with Starlink. Musk says they will support "international aid orgs" in Gaza, Israel now says they will use "all available means" to stop SpaceX from doing so.

[Frantisek Borsik]

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I agree, wholeheartedly. There are definitely some good people in Gaza -
held under the rule of Hamas, being literally hostages to them and their
murderous cause. And it was the same when Fatah was the ruling Palestinian
party. On the other end, there are also some ridiculously unhinged people
in Israel, that would love to get rid of Palestinian problem the way
<https://www.britannica.com/event/Armenian-Genocide> that Ottoman empire
did with Armenians, which is absolutely appalling and unacceptable.

I hope the voice of reason, love and compassion will stop us from running
to the WWIII on full-retard mode.

All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik



https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com


On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 5:27 PM Dave Taht via Starlink <
starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> I think that the internet should stay up, connecting people to people,
> through all the conflicts we may ever have. The mails kept running -
> although censored - all through world war two - the red cross, allowed
> by all sides, to keep it's relief missions running, the churches
> (mostly) doing their job to console the weary...
>
> Many other orgs, like the ITU, and the IETF, are committed to the
> continued free exchange of information, no matter what.
>
> https://www.itu.int/en/about/Pages/default.aspx
>
> I am happy to see a worldwide ISP committed to the same principles.
>
> On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 9:07 AM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
> Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >
> > ➔➔https://twitter.com/dburbach/status/1718638348812595660
> >
> > --
> > Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com
> > living as The Truth is True
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Starlink mailing list
> > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>
>
>
> --
> Oct 30:
> https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>

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Re: [Starlink] "Interesting set of developments with Starlink. Musk says they will support "international aid orgs" in Gaza, Israel now says they will use "all available means" to stop SpaceX from doing so.

[Dave Taht]

I remember how twitter cheered on the "Arab Spring" 2010-2012-
apparently unaware of what
happened in the "Prague Spring", and how it ended. For those of you
that do not know that history:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_Spring

On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 9:26 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think that the internet should stay up, connecting people to people,
> through all the conflicts we may ever have. The mails kept running -
> although censored - all through world war two - the red cross, allowed
> by all sides, to keep it's relief missions running, the churches
> (mostly) doing their job to console the weary...
>
> Many other orgs, like the ITU, and the IETF, are committed to the
> continued free exchange of information, no matter what.
>
> https://www.itu.int/en/about/Pages/default.aspx
>
> I am happy to see a worldwide ISP committed to the same principles.
>
> On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 9:07 AM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
> Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >
> > ➔➔https://twitter.com/dburbach/status/1718638348812595660
> >
> > --
> > Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com
> > living as The Truth is True
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Starlink mailing list
> > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>
>
>
> --
> Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos



-- 
Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos

Re: [Starlink] "Interesting set of developments with Starlink. Musk says they will support "international aid orgs" in Gaza, Israel now says they will use "all available means" to stop SpaceX from doing so.

[Joe Hamelin]

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The US did shut down ham radio during WW2.

On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 9:27 AM Dave Taht via Starlink <
starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> I think that the internet should stay up, connecting people to people,
> through all the conflicts we may ever have. The mails kept running -
> although censored - all through world war two - the red cross, allowed
> by all sides, to keep it's relief missions running, the churches
> (mostly) doing their job to console the weary...
>
> Many other orgs, like the ITU, and the IETF, are committed to the
> continued free exchange of information, no matter what.
>
> https://www.itu.int/en/about/Pages/default.aspx
>
> I am happy to see a worldwide ISP committed to the same principles.
>
> On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 9:07 AM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
> Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >
> > ➔➔https://twitter.com/dburbach/status/1718638348812595660
> >
> > --
> > Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com
> > living as The Truth is True
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Starlink mailing list
> > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>
>
>
> --
> Oct 30:
> https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>


-- 
--
Joe Hamelin, W7COM, Tulalip, WA, 360-474-7474

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Re: [Starlink] "Interesting set of developments with Starlink. Musk says they will support "international aid orgs" in Gaza, Israel now says they will use "all available means" to stop SpaceX from doing so.

[Ulrich Speidel]

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The main problem as it stands with Gaza would be to get Starlink 
equipment in for the international organisations to use. Coverage 
wouldn't be an issue, but power and bandwidth would be.

It's a pretty dire situation. Palestinian friends of ours have had 
extended family killed, the wife's mother is currently visiting here and 
can't go back obviously - plus her apartment got flattened in her 
absence early on. Then our friend's teenage kids from his previous 
marriage got buried under rubble when their mother's place got 
flattened, and that was just up to last week. I really need to ask him 
what's happened since. They came here because they were sick of Hamas.

On the ham radio side, I helped a bit with band watch for MARS (military 
affiliated amateur radio system) during the first Gulf War when the 
local US garrison (Old Ironsides) got sent from Germany to Saudi Arabia. 
A lot of them found out the hard way that if you have a bank account in 
Germany and you're on deployment, your significant other doesn't 
automatically get access to it like apparently they do in the US, and 
the army didn't exactly think that it was their problem, either. Got to 
listen to a lot of that. First world problems compared to Gaza, though.

On 30/10/2023 5:32 pm, Joe Hamelin via Starlink wrote:
> The US did shut down ham radio during WW2.
>
> On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 9:27 AM Dave Taht via Starlink 
> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>     I think that the internet should stay up, connecting people to people,
>     through all the conflicts we may ever have. The mails kept running -
>     although censored - all through world war two - the red cross, allowed
>     by all sides, to keep it's relief missions running, the churches
>     (mostly) doing their job to console the weary...
>
>     Many other orgs, like the ITU, and the IETF, are committed to the
>     continued free exchange of information, no matter what.
>
>     https://www.itu.int/en/about/Pages/default.aspx
>     <https://www.itu.int/en/about/Pages/default.aspx>
>
>     I am happy to see a worldwide ISP committed to the same principles.
>
>     On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 9:07 AM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
>     Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>     >
>     > ➔➔https://twitter.com/dburbach/status/1718638348812595660
>     <https://twitter.com/dburbach/status/1718638348812595660>
>     >
>     > --
>     > Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com
>     > living as The Truth is True
>     >
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > Starlink mailing list
>     > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>     > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>     <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink>
>
>
>
>     -- 
>     Oct 30:
>     https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
>     <https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html>
>     Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
>     _______________________________________________
>     Starlink mailing list
>     Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>     https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>     <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink>
>
>
>
> -- 
> --
> Joe Hamelin, W7COM, Tulalip, WA, 360-474-7474
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>
-- 
****************************************************************
Dr. Ulrich Speidel

School of Computer Science

Room 303S.594 (City Campus)

The University of Auckland
u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz  
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/
****************************************************************



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Re: [Starlink] "Interesting set of developments with Starlink. Musk says they will support "international aid orgs" in Gaza, Israel now says they will use "all available means" to stop SpaceX from doing so.

[Alexandre Petrescu]

It is indeed interesting.

Le 30/10/2023 à 06:56, Ulrich Speidel via Starlink a écrit :
>
> The main problem as it stands with Gaza would be to get Starlink 
> equipment in for the international organisations to use. Coverage 
> wouldn't be an issue, but power and bandwidth would be.
>
I agree with these points.

But it is more difficult than that.

Indeed, if they can get starlink receivers in the place, then there is 
need of power to power it.  Maybe it is not easy to find electricity.

The bandwidth problem - I dont know precisely what is it in this 
context.  Maybe it's that there would be too many wifi users on a 
starlink DISHY.

There are more problems: I think I heard Israel opposes this idea of 
delivery of starlink in that place.  The question is _how_ they'd like 
to oppose.  Is it verbal opposition, is it opposition of delivery of 
starlink DISHYs to the aream or is it jamming, or is it something else.  
For the latter two, there is legislation in place that would guide the 
way in which they could oppose, but that legislation is fragile.  For 
example, is there frequency allocation authority in that area, I'm not sure.

Another problem is the statement of intention of activating starlink 
over the place.  What does it mean in practice.  I suppose it is not 
that simple as turning a knob on.  Because these numerous sats already 
go above the area, and the area is very small.  The borders cant be 
respected very easily from that high. This kind of statement like 
'activate starlink' over certain area was already made in the recent 
past.  And it is the same unclarity, because that area is a small area.  
(there are other - more clear - statements like 'turn on iphone sat 
emergency calls' over other areas in Europe.  But these areas are much 
larger (4 large countries in Europe).  And they are accomodated by 
legislation allowing frequency use.  Whereas in the starlink 'activate 
over area x at war' there is no frequency agreements.)

Another problem is that, in case of delivery of starlink DISHYs: _who_ 
uses starlink in that area at war.  One might deliver starlink terminals 
in the area at war only to designated persons (e.g. a responsible UN 
person).  But a skilled person might plug that starlink into an existing 
cellular basestation for the benefit of all: all regular smartphones 
might connect to the regular basestation which in turn might reach the 
Internet via starlink.  At that  point, it's not clear how the 
responsible UN person might allow only some legitimate' (humanitarian) 
smartphones to connect to these regular base stations.

Alex

> It's a pretty dire situation. Palestinian friends of ours have had 
> extended family killed, the wife's mother is currently visiting here 
> and can't go back obviously - plus her apartment got flattened in her 
> absence early on. Then our friend's teenage kids from his previous 
> marriage got buried under rubble when their mother's place got 
> flattened, and that was just up to last week. I really need to ask him 
> what's happened since. They came here because they were sick of Hamas.
>
> On the ham radio side, I helped a bit with band watch for MARS 
> (military affiliated amateur radio system) during the first Gulf War 
> when the local US garrison (Old Ironsides) got sent from Germany to 
> Saudi Arabia. A lot of them found out the hard way that if you have a 
> bank account in Germany and you're on deployment, your significant 
> other doesn't automatically get access to it like apparently they do 
> in the US, and the army didn't exactly think that it was their 
> problem, either. Got to listen to a lot of that. First world problems 
> compared to Gaza, though.
>
> On 30/10/2023 5:32 pm, Joe Hamelin via Starlink wrote:
>> The US did shut down ham radio during WW2.
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 9:27 AM Dave Taht via Starlink 
>> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>>     I think that the internet should stay up, connecting people to
>>     people,
>>     through all the conflicts we may ever have. The mails kept running -
>>     although censored - all through world war two - the red cross,
>>     allowed
>>     by all sides, to keep it's relief missions running, the churches
>>     (mostly) doing their job to console the weary...
>>
>>     Many other orgs, like the ITU, and the IETF, are committed to the
>>     continued free exchange of information, no matter what.
>>
>>     https://www.itu.int/en/about/Pages/default.aspx
>>
>>     I am happy to see a worldwide ISP committed to the same principles.
>>
>>     On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 9:07 AM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
>>     Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>     >
>>     > ➔➔https://twitter.com/dburbach/status/1718638348812595660
>>     >
>>     > --
>>     > Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com
>>     > living as The Truth is True
>>     >
>>     > _______________________________________________
>>     > Starlink mailing list
>>     > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>     > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>
>>
>>
>>     -- 
>>     Oct 30:
>>     https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
>>     Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     Starlink mailing list
>>     Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>     https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> --
>> Joe Hamelin, W7COM, Tulalip, WA, 360-474-7474
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>
> -- 
> ****************************************************************
> Dr. Ulrich Speidel
>
> School of Computer Science
>
> Room 303S.594 (City Campus)
>
> The University of Auckland
> u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz  
> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/
> ****************************************************************
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

Re: [Starlink] "Interesting set of developments with Starlink. Musk says they will support "international aid orgs" in Gaza, Israel now says they will use "all available means" to stop SpaceX from doing so.

[Ulrich Speidel]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 10325 bytes --]

On 31/10/2023 1:03 am, Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink wrote:
> It is indeed interesting.
>
> Le 30/10/2023 à 06:56, Ulrich Speidel via Starlink a écrit :
> >
> > The main problem as it stands with Gaza would be to get Starlink
> > equipment in for the international organisations to use. Coverage
> > wouldn't be an issue, but power and bandwidth would be.
> >
> I agree with these points.
>
> But it is more difficult than that.
>
> Indeed, if they can get starlink receivers in the place, then there is
> need of power to power it.  Maybe it is not easy to find electricity.
I gather that Gazans are used to unreliable power, so many have solar or 
generators. Of course, generators need fuel, which is in short supply.
>
> The bandwidth problem - I dont know precisely what is it in this
> context.  Maybe it's that there would be too many wifi users on a
> starlink DISHY.

It's that Starlink can only support so many Dishys per area on the 
ground. Handwaving explanation: Think of each satellite as having a 
number of slots on each frequency channel during which it can 
communicate with ONE Dishy on the ground that the satellite can see in 
that particular area. Once a Dishy takes that slot, no other Dishy in 
the area can, because that would cause interference. Now scale that by 
the number of Starlink satellites that can be seen from the area, and 
you have a fairly rough idea of how many slots there are available in 
total for that area. Dishys will on average grab multiple slots, though, 
with each slot worth a few Mb/s only. More Dishys therefore doesn't mean 
more capacity. Now we know that Starlink is running out of capacity as 
is in areas with medium population densities, such as the Ahr valley in 
Germany, which suffered a flash flood a couple of years ago that took 
out all terrestrial comms infrastructure:


If a place like this can overload Starlink with a population in the low 
10,000's, then a densely populated place like Gaza with (like now) 
enhanced needs would be running out of capacity in no time. The entire 
Gaza Strip is only about 3 Starlink cells in size, and has over 2 
million people in it. Most of whom have family outside Gaza that they'd 
like to keep updated on a very regular basis.

>
> There are more problems: I think I heard Israel opposes this idea of
> delivery of starlink in that place.  The question is _how_ they'd like
> to oppose.  Is it verbal opposition, is it opposition of delivery of
> starlink DISHYs to the aream or is it jamming, or is it something else.
> For the latter two, there is legislation in place that would guide the
> way in which they could oppose, but that legislation is fragile. For
> example, is there frequency allocation authority in that area, I'm not 
> sure.

How they would oppose is a good question - I'm sure the Russians would 
like to know, too.

Sure, you can try to keep Dishys out, but given that roaming access has 
been available in the wider region for a while (cue Turkey earthquake), 
I would be surprised if there weren't already numerous Dishys in Gaza. 
Frequency allocation authority ... sounds a bit like Israel having the 
authority to tell Hamas where to park its cars. As Starlink isn't 
officially available in Israel yet and it's a small market, the 
regulatory leverage of the Israeli government against SpaceX is probably 
low.

Jamming isn't really all that easy (again, ask Russia): To jam Starlink 
successfully in an area, you'd have to jam the satellites (probably 
about a dozen most of the time, and changing all the time) from the 
ground in the same area as the Dishys using them.

>
> Another problem is the statement of intention of activating starlink
> over the place.  What does it mean in practice.  I suppose it is not
> that simple as turning a knob on.  Because these numerous sats already
> go above the area, and the area is very small.  The borders cant be
> respected very easily from that high. This kind of statement like
> 'activate starlink' over certain area was already made in the recent
> past.  And it is the same unclarity, because that area is a small area.
> (there are other - more clear - statements like 'turn on iphone sat
> emergency calls' over other areas in Europe.  But these areas are much
> larger (4 large countries in Europe).  And they are accomodated by
> legislation allowing frequency use.  Whereas in the starlink 'activate
> over area x at war' there is no frequency agreements.)
Starlink can in principle now be provisioned anywhere between 53 deg 
north and south, and I guess with a few interruptions in service pretty 
much anywhere else, too. Whether a Starlink satellite will provide 
service to a Dishy at location X below it is a decision made in 
software, probably aboard the satellite itself, and that can be 
controlled at will by SpaceX.
>
> Another problem is that, in case of delivery of starlink DISHYs: _who_
> uses starlink in that area at war.  One might deliver starlink terminals
> in the area at war only to designated persons (e.g. a responsible UN
> person).  But a skilled person might plug that starlink into an existing
> cellular basestation for the benefit of all: all regular smartphones
> might connect to the regular basestation which in turn might reach the
> Internet via starlink.  At that  point, it's not clear how the
> responsible UN person might allow only some legitimate' (humanitarian)
> smartphones to connect to these regular base stations.
Simple. You set a password on the Dishy's WiFi router and give it to 
legit users only.
>
> Alex
>
> > It's a pretty dire situation. Palestinian friends of ours have had
> > extended family killed, the wife's mother is currently visiting here
> > and can't go back obviously - plus her apartment got flattened in her
> > absence early on. Then our friend's teenage kids from his previous
> > marriage got buried under rubble when their mother's place got
> > flattened, and that was just up to last week. I really need to ask him
> > what's happened since. They came here because they were sick of Hamas.
> >
> > On the ham radio side, I helped a bit with band watch for MARS
> > (military affiliated amateur radio system) during the first Gulf War
> > when the local US garrison (Old Ironsides) got sent from Germany to
> > Saudi Arabia. A lot of them found out the hard way that if you have a
> > bank account in Germany and you're on deployment, your significant
> > other doesn't automatically get access to it like apparently they do
> > in the US, and the army didn't exactly think that it was their
> > problem, either. Got to listen to a lot of that. First world problems
> > compared to Gaza, though.
> >
> > On 30/10/2023 5:32 pm, Joe Hamelin via Starlink wrote:
> >> The US did shut down ham radio during WW2.
> >>
> >> On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 9:27 AM Dave Taht via Starlink
> >> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> I think that the internet should stay up, connecting people to
> >> people,
> >> through all the conflicts we may ever have. The mails kept running -
> >> although censored - all through world war two - the red cross,
> >> allowed
> >> by all sides, to keep it's relief missions running, the churches
> >> (mostly) doing their job to console the weary...
> >>
> >> Many other orgs, like the ITU, and the IETF, are committed to the
> >> continued free exchange of information, no matter what.
> >>
> >> https://www.itu.int/en/about/Pages/default.aspx 
> <https://www.itu.int/en/about/Pages/default.aspx>
> >>
> >> I am happy to see a worldwide ISP committed to the same principles.
> >>
> >> On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 9:07 AM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
> >> Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > ➔➔https://twitter.com/dburbach/status/1718638348812595660 
> <https://twitter.com/dburbach/status/1718638348812595660>
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com
> >> > living as The Truth is True
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Starlink mailing list
> >> > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink 
> <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Oct 30:
> >> 
> https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html 
> <https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html>
> >> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Starlink mailing list
> >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink 
> <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> --
> >> Joe Hamelin, W7COM, Tulalip, WA, 360-474-7474
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Starlink mailing list
> >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink 
> <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink>
> >>
> > --
> > ****************************************************************
> > Dr. Ulrich Speidel
> >
> > School of Computer Science
> >
> > Room 303S.594 (City Campus)
> >
> > The University of Auckland
> > u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz
> > http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ 
> <http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich>
> > ****************************************************************
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Starlink mailing list
> > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink 
> <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink 
> <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink>

-- 
****************************************************************
Dr. Ulrich Speidel

School of Computer Science

Room 303S.594 (City Campus)

The University of Auckland
u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz  
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/
****************************************************************



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Re: [Starlink] "Interesting set of developments with Starlink. Musk says they will support "international aid orgs" in Gaza, Israel now says they will use "all available means" to stop SpaceX from doing so.

[Alexandre Petrescu]

Le 30/10/2023 à 13:47, Ulrich Speidel via Starlink a écrit :
> On 31/10/2023 1:03 am, Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink wrote:
>> It is indeed interesting.
>>
>> Le 30/10/2023 à 06:56, Ulrich Speidel via Starlink a écrit :
>> >
>> > The main problem as it stands with Gaza would be to get Starlink
>> > equipment in for the international organisations to use. Coverage
>> > wouldn't be an issue, but power and bandwidth would be.
>> >
>> I agree with these points.
>>
>> But it is more difficult than that.
>>
>> Indeed, if they can get starlink receivers in the place, then there is
>> need of power to power it.  Maybe it is not easy to find electricity.
> I gather that Gazans are used to unreliable power, so many have solar 
> or generators. Of course, generators need fuel, which is in short supply.
>>
>> The bandwidth problem - I dont know precisely what is it in this
>> context.  Maybe it's that there would be too many wifi users on a
>> starlink DISHY.
>
> It's that Starlink can only support so many Dishys per area on the 
> ground. Handwaving explanation: Think of each satellite as having a 
> number of slots on each frequency channel during which it can 
> communicate with ONE Dishy on the ground that the satellite can see in 
> that particular area. Once a Dishy takes that slot, no other Dishy in 
> the area can, because that would cause interference. Now scale that by 
> the number of Starlink satellites that can be seen from the area, and 
> you have a fairly rough idea of how many slots there are available in 
> total for that area. Dishys will on average grab multiple slots, 
> though, with each slot worth a few Mb/s only. More Dishys therefore 
> doesn't mean more capacity. Now we know that Starlink is running out 
> of capacity as is in areas with medium population densities, such as 
> the Ahr valley in Germany, which suffered a flash flood a couple of 
> years ago that took out all terrestrial comms infrastructure:
>
>
> If a place like this can overload Starlink with a population in the 
> low 10,000's, then a densely populated place like Gaza with (like now) 
> enhanced needs would be running out of capacity in no time. The entire 
> Gaza Strip is only about 3 Starlink cells in size, and has over 2 
> million people in it. Most of whom have family outside Gaza that 
> they'd like to keep updated on a very regular basis.
>

Thanks for the figure!  It gives me a sense of dimension (5km the edge 
of that hexagon).  I thought it was much larger.


>>
>> There are more problems: I think I heard Israel opposes this idea of
>> delivery of starlink in that place.  The question is _how_ they'd like
>> to oppose.  Is it verbal opposition, is it opposition of delivery of
>> starlink DISHYs to the aream or is it jamming, or is it something else.
>> For the latter two, there is legislation in place that would guide the
>> way in which they could oppose, but that legislation is fragile.  For
>> example, is there frequency allocation authority in that area, I'm 
>> not sure.
>
> How they would oppose is a good question - I'm sure the Russians would 
> like to know, too.
>
 From the public announcements, Russia opposed it (starlink) verbally, only.

I dont think (I did not hear about?) Russia jamming starlink sats.

Russia verbally  once threatened verbally harder the starlink sats, but 
Mr. Musk responded publicly that there are thousands of them up there, 
so it would be hard to imagine putting them all down.  He even said he 
could easily put even more up there.

I did hear about Russia complaining about others jamming their sats.  
Russia persons called the jamming of their sats to be potentially cases 
of war, but they did not repeat that statement later, or I did not 
hear.  I am not sure what in the current legislation made them think so, 
but I would like to know.

I also heard about the VIASAT KA-SAT attack early in the Ukraine 
invasion (it was an attack via Internet, not jamming).


> Sure, you can try to keep Dishys out, but given that roaming access 
> has been available in the wider region for a while (cue Turkey 
> earthquake), I would be surprised if there weren't already numerous 
> Dishys in Gaza.
>

> Frequency allocation authority ... sounds a bit like Israel having the 
> authority to tell Hamas where to park its cars.
>
Ideally, one would have a government organisation in the area. That 
gov't would have a frequency allocation subsidiary.  That subsidiary 
would allow, or not allow, starlink to emit in the area.

> As Starlink isn't officially available in Israel yet and it's a small 
> market, the regulatory leverage of the Israeli government against 
> SpaceX is probably low.
>
I did not know Starlink is not available in Israel.

The question would be who has authority over the frequencies above the 
disputed territories.  And it is that authority that would allow, or 
disallow, the use of starlink frequencies (somewhere at 10-15GHz IIRC).  
All Starlink would need to do is request access to that spectrum.

>
> Jamming isn't really all that easy (again, ask Russia): To jam 
> Starlink successfully in an area, you'd have to jam the satellites 
> (probably about a dozen most of the time, and changing all the time) 
> from the ground in the same area as the Dishys using them.
>
I am interested in the legislation part of that, not the technical.


>> smartphones to connect to these regular base stations.
> Simple. You set a password on the Dishy's WiFi router and give it to 
> legit users only.

It might be that straightforward, I agree.

Other configurations might be possible too, where passwords on WiFi 
might not be enough.

Alex

>>
>> Alex
>>
>> > It's a pretty dire situation. Palestinian friends of ours have had
>> > extended family killed, the wife's mother is currently visiting here
>> > and can't go back obviously - plus her apartment got flattened in her
>> > absence early on. Then our friend's teenage kids from his previous
>> > marriage got buried under rubble when their mother's place got
>> > flattened, and that was just up to last week. I really need to ask him
>> > what's happened since. They came here because they were sick of Hamas.
>> >
>> > On the ham radio side, I helped a bit with band watch for MARS
>> > (military affiliated amateur radio system) during the first Gulf War
>> > when the local US garrison (Old Ironsides) got sent from Germany to
>> > Saudi Arabia. A lot of them found out the hard way that if you have a
>> > bank account in Germany and you're on deployment, your significant
>> > other doesn't automatically get access to it like apparently they do
>> > in the US, and the army didn't exactly think that it was their
>> > problem, either. Got to listen to a lot of that. First world problems
>> > compared to Gaza, though.
>> >
>> > On 30/10/2023 5:32 pm, Joe Hamelin via Starlink wrote:
>> >> The US did shut down ham radio during WW2.
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 9:27 AM Dave Taht via Starlink
>> >> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I think that the internet should stay up, connecting people to
>> >> people,
>> >> through all the conflicts we may ever have. The mails kept running -
>> >> although censored - all through world war two - the red cross,
>> >> allowed
>> >> by all sides, to keep it's relief missions running, the churches
>> >> (mostly) doing their job to console the weary...
>> >>
>> >> Many other orgs, like the ITU, and the IETF, are committed to the
>> >> continued free exchange of information, no matter what.
>> >>
>> >> https://www.itu.int/en/about/Pages/default.aspx
>> >>
>> >> I am happy to see a worldwide ISP committed to the same principles.
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 9:07 AM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
>> >> Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > ➔➔https://twitter.com/dburbach/status/1718638348812595660
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com
>> >> > living as The Truth is True
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > Starlink mailing list
>> >> > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Oct 30:
>> >> https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
>> >> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Starlink mailing list
>> >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> --
>> >> Joe Hamelin, W7COM, Tulalip, WA, 360-474-7474
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Starlink mailing list
>> >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>> >>
>> > --
>> > ****************************************************************
>> > Dr. Ulrich Speidel
>> >
>> > School of Computer Science
>> >
>> > Room 303S.594 (City Campus)
>> >
>> > The University of Auckland
>> > u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz
>> > http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/
>> > ****************************************************************
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Starlink mailing list
>> > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
> -- 
> ****************************************************************
> Dr. Ulrich Speidel
>
> School of Computer Science
>
> Room 303S.594 (City Campus)
>
> The University of Auckland
> u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz  
> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/
> ****************************************************************
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

Re: [Starlink] "Interesting set of developments with Starlink. Musk says they will support "international aid orgs" in Gaza, Israel now says they will use "all available means" to stop SpaceX from doing so.

[David Lang]

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On Mon, 30 Oct 2023, Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink wrote:

>> Frequency allocation authority ... sounds a bit like Israel having the 
>> authority to tell Hamas where to park its cars.
>>
> Ideally, one would have a government organisation in the area. That 
> gov't would have a frequency allocation subsidiary.  That subsidiary 
> would allow, or not allow, starlink to emit in the area.
>
>> As Starlink isn't officially available in Israel yet and it's a small 
>> market, the regulatory leverage of the Israeli government against 
>> SpaceX is probably low.
>>
> I did not know Starlink is not available in Israel.
>
> The question would be who has authority over the frequencies above the 
> disputed territories.  And it is that authority that would allow, or 
> disallow, the use of starlink frequencies (somewhere at 10-15GHz IIRC).  
> All Starlink would need to do is request access to that spectrum.

Hamas is the elected government of Gaza

David Lang

Re: [Starlink] "Interesting set of developments with Starlink. Musk says they will support "international aid orgs" in Gaza, Israel now says they will use "all available means" to stop SpaceX from doing so.

[Ulrich Speidel]

On 31/10/2023 2:30 am, Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink wrote:
>
>
> > How they would oppose is a good question - I'm sure the Russians would
> > like to know, too.
> >
> From the public announcements, Russia opposed it (starlink) verbally, 
> only.
>
> I dont think (I did not hear about?) Russia jamming starlink sats.
>
> Russia verbally  once threatened verbally harder the starlink sats, but
> Mr. Musk responded publicly that there are thousands of them up there,
> so it would be hard to imagine putting them all down.  He even said he
> could easily put even more up there.
>
> I did hear about Russia complaining about others jamming their sats.
> Russia persons called the jamming of their sats to be potentially cases
> of war, but they did not repeat that statement later, or I did not
> hear.  I am not sure what in the current legislation made them think so,
> but I would like to know.
>
> I also heard about the VIASAT KA-SAT attack early in the Ukraine
> invasion (it was an attack via Internet, not jamming).
VIASAT are geostationary satellites 36000 km above the Equator, and they 
don't move relative to ground stations like LEO sats (Starlink & Co) do. 
They're a much easier target, both in terms of RF jamming (the further 
you are away from the jammer and your intended transmitter with your 
binoculars, the easier it is to get in front of them) but also in terms 
of damage done - one satellite out equates to service outage to a large 
area. Knock a Starlink sat out and there are another dozen or so within 
sight that Dishy and the bent-pipe teleport can de-camp to, so you'd get 
a few dozens seconds worth of outage at most I guess.
>
> The question would be who has authority over the frequencies above the
> disputed territories.  And it is that authority that would allow, or
> disallow, the use of starlink frequencies (somewhere at 10-15GHz IIRC).
> All Starlink would need to do is request access to that spectrum.
Spectrum access isn't the issue - the spectrum that Starlink uses is 
reserved internationally for space-to-ground and ground-to-space use, 
however they still need a license from the respective government that 
has legislative control over the ground stations in their territory to 
be able to use that spectrum. But that presumes peacetime order. I don't 
think Gaza is awash with radio inspectors checking licences right now.
>
> > Jamming isn't really all that easy (again, ask Russia): To jam
> > Starlink successfully in an area, you'd have to jam the satellites
> > (probably about a dozen most of the time, and changing all the time)
> > from the ground in the same area as the Dishys using them.
> >
> I am interested in the legislation part of that, not the technical.

So which law currently applies in Gaza, and who enforces it? It's 
difficult enough to get a competent radio inspector to turn up at a site 
in some Western countries. In some places, they don't even exist, or 
have no means to investigate off-label use of communication equipment. I 
mentioned Tonga here last year, where marine VHF radio all but replaced 
the domestic wired telephone network for a long time in the northern 
island group of Vava'u, for example.

-- 

****************************************************************
Dr. Ulrich Speidel

School of Computer Science

Room 303S.594 (City Campus)

The University of Auckland
u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/
****************************************************************

Re: [Starlink] "Interesting set of developments with Starlink. Musk says they will support "international aid orgs" in Gaza, Israel now says they will use "all available means" to stop SpaceX from doing so.

[Alexandre Petrescu]

Thanks for the reply.

Le 31/10/2023 à 13:57, Ulrich Speidel via Starlink a écrit :
> On 31/10/2023 2:30 am, Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink wrote:
>>
>>
>> > How they would oppose is a good question - I'm sure the Russians would
>> > like to know, too.
>> >
>> From the public announcements, Russia opposed it (starlink) verbally, 
>> only.
>>
>> I dont think (I did not hear about?) Russia jamming starlink sats.
>>
>> Russia verbally  once threatened verbally harder the starlink sats, but
>> Mr. Musk responded publicly that there are thousands of them up there,
>> so it would be hard to imagine putting them all down.  He even said he
>> could easily put even more up there.
>>
>> I did hear about Russia complaining about others jamming their sats.
>> Russia persons called the jamming of their sats to be potentially cases
>> of war, but they did not repeat that statement later, or I did not
>> hear.  I am not sure what in the current legislation made them think so,
>> but I would like to know.
>>
>> I also heard about the VIASAT KA-SAT attack early in the Ukraine
>> invasion (it was an attack via Internet, not jamming).
> VIASAT are geostationary satellites 36000 km above the Equator, and 
> they don't move relative to ground stations like LEO sats (Starlink & 
> Co) do. They're a much easier target, both in terms of RF jamming (the 
> further you are away from the jammer and your intended transmitter 
> with your binoculars, the easier it is to get in front of them) but 
> also in terms of damage done - one satellite out equates to service 
> outage to a large area. Knock a Starlink sat out and there are another 
> dozen or so within sight that Dishy and the bent-pipe teleport can 
> de-camp to, so you'd get a few dozens seconds worth of outage at most 
> I guess.

A threat analysis would admit that, but would also go deeper and wider 
in the way risks can happen.


>>
>> The question would be who has authority over the frequencies above the
>> disputed territories.  And it is that authority that would allow, or
>> disallow, the use of starlink frequencies (somewhere at 10-15GHz IIRC).
>> All Starlink would need to do is request access to that spectrum.
> Spectrum access isn't the issue - the spectrum that Starlink uses is 
> reserved internationally for space-to-ground and ground-to-space use, 
> however they still need a license from the respective government that 
> has legislative control over the ground stations in their territory to 
> be able to use that spectrum. But that presumes peacetime order. I 
> don't think Gaza is awash with radio inspectors checking licences 
> right now.

Thanks, it teaches that I need to go to my local regulator and compare 
the frequency reservations to that of ITU and FCC (at the origin).

It also makes wonder whether teleport presence is mandatory in countries 
where service is offered, but I can check that myself.

>>
>> > Jamming isn't really all that easy (again, ask Russia): To jam
>> > Starlink successfully in an area, you'd have to jam the satellites
>> > (probably about a dozen most of the time, and changing all the time)
>> > from the ground in the same area as the Dishys using them.
>> >
>> I am interested in the legislation part of that, not the technical.
>
> So which law currently applies in Gaza, and who enforces it? It's 
> difficult enough to get a competent radio inspector to turn up at a 
> site in some Western countries. In some places, they don't even exist, 
> or have no means to investigate off-label use of communication 
> equipment. I mentioned Tonga here last year, where marine VHF radio 
> all but replaced the domestic wired telephone network for a long time 
> in the northern island group of Vava'u, for example.

I think you bring up an interesting aspect - that of frequency 
inspectors in areas in a crisis.  The involvement of humans to control 
the use of Internet in a crisis area can be a great tool. I did not know it.

Alex

Re: [Starlink] "Interesting set of developments with Starlink. Musk says they will support "international aid orgs" in Gaza, Israel now says they will use "all available means" to stop SpaceX from doing so.

[Alexandre Petrescu]

Le 30/10/2023 à 13:47, Ulrich Speidel via Starlink a écrit :
> On 31/10/2023 1:03 am, Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink wrote:
>> It is indeed interesting.
>>
>> Le 30/10/2023 à 06:56, Ulrich Speidel via Starlink a écrit :
>> >
>> > The main problem as it stands with Gaza would be to get Starlink
>> > equipment in for the international organisations to use. Coverage
>> > wouldn't be an issue, but power and bandwidth would be.
>> >
>> I agree with these points.
>>
>> But it is more difficult than that.
>>
>> Indeed, if they can get starlink receivers in the place, then there is
>> need of power to power it.  Maybe it is not easy to find electricity.
> I gather that Gazans are used to unreliable power, so many have solar 
> or generators. Of course, generators need fuel, which is in short supply.
>>
>> The bandwidth problem - I dont know precisely what is it in this
>> context.  Maybe it's that there would be too many wifi users on a
>> starlink DISHY.
>
> It's that Starlink can only support so many Dishys per area on the 
> ground. Handwaving explanation: Think of each satellite as having a 
> number of slots on each frequency channel during which it can 
> communicate with ONE Dishy on the ground that the satellite can see in 
> that particular area. Once a Dishy takes that slot, no other Dishy in 
> the area can, because that would cause interference. Now scale that by 
> the number of Starlink satellites that can be seen from the area, and 
> you have a fairly rough idea of how many slots there are available in 
> total for that area. Dishys will on average grab multiple slots, 
> though, with each slot worth a few Mb/s only. More Dishys therefore 
> doesn't mean more capacity. Now we know that Starlink is running out 
> of capacity as is in areas with medium population densities, such as 
> the Ahr valley in Germany, which suffered a flash flood a couple of 
> years ago that took out all terrestrial comms infrastructure:
>
>
I want to say that I think this hexagon is an imaginative idea of the 
GUI designer.  I think it does not correspond to reality.  I am not sure 
about even the most basic fact such as the dimension of the hexagon, or 
of a more circular 'spot' radius.

It was the case like that with earlier maps of cellular network 
deployments.  The name 'cell' itself that comes from it - it's a 
hexagon, like in a honey pot.  In practice, no cellular network 
deployment I am aware of has cells of that kind of precise shape. The 
base stations themselves are not following such precise patterns.   The 
precise forms of coverage shapes can not be given by operators because 
it is unique, difficult to calculate, and depends on many landscape 
factors and other propagation conditions.  What can be given is the type 
of antennas, their precise placement and orientation.  That is public 
info of cellular systems in some countries.

With starlink antennas there is no authoritative public info (from 
starlink) about the precise orientation and types of antennas of the 
sats.  The reported positions of sats are rather irregular - much more 
irregular than that precise shape of hexagons shown in the photo.

The placement of teleports is also unknown, but speculated by end users.

The info about satellite tracking, their precise situation: I still need 
to find out where that info comes from more precisely and how is it 
obtain (is it reported by sats or is it  other cameras/radars that 
'range' each one of them, or is it simply speculated from an initial 
plan of trajectory; and what is the delay between the actual fact and 
what is seen on GUI: seconds, minutes or hours delays).

Alex

> If a place like this can overload Starlink with a population in the 
> low 10,000's, then a densely populated place like Gaza with (like now) 
> enhanced needs would be running out of capacity in no time. The entire 
> Gaza Strip is only about 3 Starlink cells in size, and has over 2 
> million people in it. Most of whom have family outside Gaza that 
> they'd like to keep updated on a very regular basis.
>
>>
>> There are more problems: I think I heard Israel opposes this idea of
>> delivery of starlink in that place.  The question is _how_ they'd like
>> to oppose.  Is it verbal opposition, is it opposition of delivery of
>> starlink DISHYs to the aream or is it jamming, or is it something else.
>> For the latter two, there is legislation in place that would guide the
>> way in which they could oppose, but that legislation is fragile.  For
>> example, is there frequency allocation authority in that area, I'm 
>> not sure.
>
> How they would oppose is a good question - I'm sure the Russians would 
> like to know, too.
>
> Sure, you can try to keep Dishys out, but given that roaming access 
> has been available in the wider region for a while (cue Turkey 
> earthquake), I would be surprised if there weren't already numerous 
> Dishys in Gaza. Frequency allocation authority ... sounds a bit like 
> Israel having the authority to tell Hamas where to park its cars. As 
> Starlink isn't officially available in Israel yet and it's a small 
> market, the regulatory leverage of the Israeli government against 
> SpaceX is probably low.
>
> Jamming isn't really all that easy (again, ask Russia): To jam 
> Starlink successfully in an area, you'd have to jam the satellites 
> (probably about a dozen most of the time, and changing all the time) 
> from the ground in the same area as the Dishys using them.
>
>>
>> Another problem is the statement of intention of activating starlink
>> over the place.  What does it mean in practice.  I suppose it is not
>> that simple as turning a knob on.  Because these numerous sats already
>> go above the area, and the area is very small.  The borders cant be
>> respected very easily from that high. This kind of statement like
>> 'activate starlink' over certain area was already made in the recent
>> past.  And it is the same unclarity, because that area is a small area.
>> (there are other - more clear - statements like 'turn on iphone sat
>> emergency calls' over other areas in Europe.  But these areas are much
>> larger (4 large countries in Europe).  And they are accomodated by
>> legislation allowing frequency use.  Whereas in the starlink 'activate
>> over area x at war' there is no frequency agreements.)
> Starlink can in principle now be provisioned anywhere between 53 deg 
> north and south, and I guess with a few interruptions in service 
> pretty much anywhere else, too. Whether a Starlink satellite will 
> provide service to a Dishy at location X below it is a decision made 
> in software, probably aboard the satellite itself, and that can be 
> controlled at will by SpaceX.
>>
>> Another problem is that, in case of delivery of starlink DISHYs: _who_
>> uses starlink in that area at war.  One might deliver starlink terminals
>> in the area at war only to designated persons (e.g. a responsible UN
>> person).  But a skilled person might plug that starlink into an existing
>> cellular basestation for the benefit of all: all regular smartphones
>> might connect to the regular basestation which in turn might reach the
>> Internet via starlink.  At that  point, it's not clear how the
>> responsible UN person might allow only some legitimate' (humanitarian)
>> smartphones to connect to these regular base stations.
> Simple. You set a password on the Dishy's WiFi router and give it to 
> legit users only.
>>
>> Alex
>>
>> > It's a pretty dire situation. Palestinian friends of ours have had
>> > extended family killed, the wife's mother is currently visiting here
>> > and can't go back obviously - plus her apartment got flattened in her
>> > absence early on. Then our friend's teenage kids from his previous
>> > marriage got buried under rubble when their mother's place got
>> > flattened, and that was just up to last week. I really need to ask him
>> > what's happened since. They came here because they were sick of Hamas.
>> >
>> > On the ham radio side, I helped a bit with band watch for MARS
>> > (military affiliated amateur radio system) during the first Gulf War
>> > when the local US garrison (Old Ironsides) got sent from Germany to
>> > Saudi Arabia. A lot of them found out the hard way that if you have a
>> > bank account in Germany and you're on deployment, your significant
>> > other doesn't automatically get access to it like apparently they do
>> > in the US, and the army didn't exactly think that it was their
>> > problem, either. Got to listen to a lot of that. First world problems
>> > compared to Gaza, though.
>> >
>> > On 30/10/2023 5:32 pm, Joe Hamelin via Starlink wrote:
>> >> The US did shut down ham radio during WW2.
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 9:27 AM Dave Taht via Starlink
>> >> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I think that the internet should stay up, connecting people to
>> >> people,
>> >> through all the conflicts we may ever have. The mails kept running -
>> >> although censored - all through world war two - the red cross,
>> >> allowed
>> >> by all sides, to keep it's relief missions running, the churches
>> >> (mostly) doing their job to console the weary...
>> >>
>> >> Many other orgs, like the ITU, and the IETF, are committed to the
>> >> continued free exchange of information, no matter what.
>> >>
>> >> https://www.itu.int/en/about/Pages/default.aspx
>> >>
>> >> I am happy to see a worldwide ISP committed to the same principles.
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 9:07 AM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
>> >> Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > ➔➔https://twitter.com/dburbach/status/1718638348812595660
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com
>> >> > living as The Truth is True
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > Starlink mailing list
>> >> > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Oct 30:
>> >> https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
>> >> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Starlink mailing list
>> >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> --
>> >> Joe Hamelin, W7COM, Tulalip, WA, 360-474-7474
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Starlink mailing list
>> >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>> >>
>> > --
>> > ****************************************************************
>> > Dr. Ulrich Speidel
>> >
>> > School of Computer Science
>> >
>> > Room 303S.594 (City Campus)
>> >
>> > The University of Auckland
>> > u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz
>> > http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/
>> > ****************************************************************
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Starlink mailing list
>> > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
> -- 
> ****************************************************************
> Dr. Ulrich Speidel
>
> School of Computer Science
>
> Room 303S.594 (City Campus)
>
> The University of Auckland
> u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz  
> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/
> ****************************************************************
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

Re: [Starlink] "Interesting set of developments with Starlink. Musk says they will support "international aid orgs" in Gaza, Israel now says they will use "all available means" to stop SpaceX from doing so.

[Ulrich Speidel]

On 11/11/2023 6:09 pm, Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink wrote:
>
> I want to say that I think this hexagon is an imaginative idea of the
> GUI designer.  I think it does not correspond to reality.  I am not sure
> about even the most basic fact such as the dimension of the hexagon, or
> of a more circular 'spot' radius.
Well it's the basis on which SpaceX will sell you a fixed subscription 
or not, so it's a bit more than just a GUI designer's fancy.
>
> It was the case like that with earlier maps of cellular network
> deployments.  The name 'cell' itself that comes from it - it's a
> hexagon, like in a honey pot.  In practice, no cellular network
> deployment I am aware of has cells of that kind of precise shape. The
> base stations themselves are not following such precise patterns.   The
> precise forms of coverage shapes can not be given by operators because
> it is unique, difficult to calculate, and depends on many landscape
> factors and other propagation conditions.  What can be given is the type
> of antennas, their precise placement and orientation.  That is public
> info of cellular systems in some countries.

Yes, but I wouldn't think of the Starlink hexagons as "cells" in the 
cellphone sense. In the cellphone sense, you'd have a base station per 
cell - and some seem to think that Starlink has something like a "spot 
beam per cell". But that's clearly not what it is.

Starlink cells are quite obviously predominantly a tool to control user 
density on the ground. We know well that Dishy orients itself to the 
area of the sky where it can expect to see the largest number of 
satellites without falling foul of GSO protection rules where 
applicable. Dishy then associates with one of them at a time for period 
that are multiples of 15 second intervals (we know that from the 
obstruction maps available from Dishy via grpc). We also know that the 
capacity we get via these associations fluctuates along with the 15 
second intervals.

These are all hallmarks of a burst slot based system where each 
satellite handles a set of time and frequency slots (TDM+FDM), such that 
a combination of a periodic time slot, a frequency channel and perhaps a 
number of other parameters (spreading code, polarisation, spatial 
multiplexing through beamforming at the satellite) defines a channel 
through which Dishy talks to the satellite or receives from the 
satellite. This sort of technology has been around for decades (see GSM 
mobile comms). During your slots, the satellite your Dishy is associated 
with will project a beam towards you.

Fluctuations in the capacity are a result of a Dishy having more or 
fewer of these slots assigned during subsequent 15 second intervals. If 
a satellite picks up more users for the next interval, the number of 
slots it can make available to your Dishy goes down. If it sheds users 
as it moves along but you hang on, then you get a few more slots, until 
either the satellite picks up more user or you change satellite.

For a scheme like this to work, you need to ensure that the number of 
slots that the visible satellites can offer to their users on the ground 
works out to an acceptable average minimum number of slots per user at 
all times. As the number of slots per satellite is likely fixed (at 
least for the same generation satellite), that puts a limit on the 
number of users within view on the ground. This is where the hexagons 
come in - they help ensure that the user density doesn't grow to a level 
anywhere where a Dishy would struggle to get enough slots.

I'd presume that the size of the hexagons was chosen to reflect the 
ability of the beamformers on the satellites to resolve a locality on 
the ground (no need to go for higher resolution then). I'd also presume 
that the number of fixed users allowed per hexagon would depend a bit on 
geographical latitude, visible satellite density and load contributions 
from a location's surroundings (Colorado farmers would likely see more 
of those from their neighbours down the road than folks on Rapa Nui). 
Roaming subscribers aren't guaranteed the same service levels (read: 
their number of slots is allowed to dip further than those of fixed 
subscribers), but as they can't be told where to be, SpaceX uses pricing 
to control user density indirectly.

>
> With starlink antennas there is no authoritative public info (from
> starlink) about the precise orientation and types of antennas of the
> sats.  The reported positions of sats are rather irregular - much more
> irregular than that precise shape of hexagons shown in the photo.
Yes - see above.
>
> The placement of teleports is also unknown, but speculated by end users.
In some cases, their locations are precisely known from their spectrum 
licenses.
>
> The info about satellite tracking, their precise situation: I still need
> to find out where that info comes from more precisely and how is it
> obtain (is it reported by sats or is it  other cameras/radars that
> 'range' each one of them, or is it simply speculated from an initial
> plan of trajectory; and what is the delay between the actual fact and
> what is seen on GUI: seconds, minutes or hours delays).

https://celestrak.org/NORAD/elements/index.php

-- 

****************************************************************
Dr. Ulrich Speidel

School of Computer Science

Room 303S.594 (City Campus)

The University of Auckland
u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/
****************************************************************

Re: [Starlink] "Interesting set of developments with Starlink. Musk says they will support "international aid orgs" in Gaza, Israel now says they will use "all available means" to stop SpaceX from doing so.

[Alexandre Petrescu]

Le 12/11/2023 à 00:47, Ulrich Speidel via Starlink a écrit :
> On 11/11/2023 6:09 pm, Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink wrote:
>>
>> I want to say that I think this hexagon is an imaginative idea of the
>> GUI designer.  I think it does not correspond to reality.  I am not sure
>> about even the most basic fact such as the dimension of the hexagon, or
>> of a more circular 'spot' radius.
> Well it's the basis on which SpaceX will sell you a fixed subscription 
> or not, so it's a bit more than just a GUI designer's fancy.

Thanks, it is good to know.

The satellitemap.space site displays relatively large hexagons, but says 
they are not affiliated with starlink.

The availabaility map published by starlink.com shows hexagons much 
smaller in size.

>>
>> It was the case like that with earlier maps of cellular network
>> deployments.  The name 'cell' itself that comes from it - it's a
>> hexagon, like in a honey pot.  In practice, no cellular network
>> deployment I am aware of has cells of that kind of precise shape. The
>> base stations themselves are not following such precise patterns.   The
>> precise forms of coverage shapes can not be given by operators because
>> it is unique, difficult to calculate, and depends on many landscape
>> factors and other propagation conditions.  What can be given is the type
>> of antennas, their precise placement and orientation.  That is public
>> info of cellular systems in some countries.
>
> Yes, but I wouldn't think of the Starlink hexagons as "cells" in the 
> cellphone sense. In the cellphone sense, you'd have a base station per 
> cell - and some seem to think that Starlink has something like a "spot 
> beam per cell". But that's clearly not what it is.

YEs, I fully agree.


>
> Starlink cells are quite obviously predominantly a tool to control 
> user density on the ground.
> We know well that Dishy orients itself to the area of the sky where it 
> can expect to see the largest number of satellites without falling 
> foul of GSO protection rules where applicable. Dishy then associates 
> with one of them at a time for period that are multiples of 15 second 
> intervals (we know that from the obstruction maps available from Dishy 
> via grpc). We also know that the capacity we get via these 
> associations fluctuates along with the 15 second intervals.
>
> These are all hallmarks of a burst slot based system where each 
> satellite handles a set of time and frequency slots (TDM+FDM), such 
> that a combination of a periodic time slot, a frequency channel and 
> perhaps a number of other parameters (spreading code, polarisation, 
> spatial multiplexing through beamforming at the satellite) defines a 
> channel through which Dishy talks to the satellite or receives from 
> the satellite. This sort of technology has been around for decades 
> (see GSM mobile comms). During your slots, the satellite your Dishy is 
> associated with will project a beam towards you.
>
> Fluctuations in the capacity are a result of a Dishy having more or 
> fewer of these slots assigned during subsequent 15 second intervals. 
> If a satellite picks up more users for the next interval, the number 
> of slots it can make available to your Dishy goes down. If it sheds 
> users as it moves along but you hang on, then you get a few more 
> slots, until either the satellite picks up more user or you change 
> satellite.
>
> For a scheme like this to work, you need to ensure that the number of 
> slots that the visible satellites can offer to their users on the 
> ground works out to an acceptable average minimum number of slots per 
> user at all times. As the number of slots per satellite is likely 
> fixed (at least for the same generation satellite), that puts a limit 
> on the number of users within view on the ground. This is where the 
> hexagons come in - they help ensure that the user density doesn't grow 
> to a level anywhere where a Dishy would struggle to get enough slots.

Sounds as 'beamforming'.  Could be.

>
> I'd presume that the size of the hexagons was chosen to reflect the 
> ability of the beamformers on the satellites to resolve a locality on 
> the ground (no need to go for higher resolution then).

It can make sense.  Whether it is true or not is another matter.

For my part, I think there is a need for a description of that, which 
comes from starlink.  It should tell the sat antenna numbers, positions, 
aperture, orientation.

> I'd also presume that the number of fixed users allowed per hexagon 
> would depend a bit on geographical latitude, visible satellite density 
> and load contributions from a location's surroundings (Colorado 
> farmers would likely see more of those from their neighbours down the 
> road than folks on Rapa Nui). Roaming subscribers aren't guaranteed 
> the same service levels (read: their number of slots is allowed to dip 
> further than those of fixed subscribers), but as they can't be told 
> where to be, SpaceX uses pricing to control user density indirectly.
>
>>
>> With starlink antennas there is no authoritative public info (from
>> starlink) about the precise orientation and types of antennas of the
>> sats.  The reported positions of sats are rather irregular - much more
>> irregular than that precise shape of hexagons shown in the photo.
> Yes - see above.
>>
>> The placement of teleports is also unknown, but speculated by end users.
> In some cases, their locations are precisely known from their spectrum 
> licenses.

That is a question.

For where I live, the spectrum licenses could come from several sources: 
2 country authorities, 1 Europe authority and ITU.

I am trying to look at them, but it is not easy because they differ in 
some respects.

>>
>> The info about satellite tracking, their precise situation: I still need
>> to find out where that info comes from more precisely and how is it
>> obtain (is it reported by sats or is it  other cameras/radars that
>> 'range' each one of them, or is it simply speculated from an initial
>> plan of trajectory; and what is the delay between the actual fact and
>> what is seen on GUI: seconds, minutes or hours delays).
>
> https://celestrak.org/NORAD/elements/index.php

It has a Donate button, which seems to make it a site built by an 
independent end user.  It is a great tool already!   With respect to the 
starlink sats positions: celestrak might simply reflect an original data 
which is made by space-track.org which is a US authority.  Or maybe not, 
they dont say it.  I dont know.

My question is how is the original data on space-track.org (or other 
original source of sat position data) created: do they range the sats 
(i.e. point lasers at them and wait for replies, radar, or similar) or 
do the sats transmit their positions on a voluntary and cooperative basis?

Another question is about which starlink sats are 'in-service' and 
deliver service, and which not?  It is not only a matter of altitude.  
The current websites telling 'in-service' or similar attributes, do not 
seem to be related to starlink, and do not seem to take that data from 
DISHYs.  They seem to be simply telling that if it is at a 550km 
altitude then they're in service.

There is also a question of latency between what is shown on a computer 
screen about the position of a sat, and where it actually is.  For 
example, if I see it now on my screen to be above my head, will I see it 
if I look up?

Alex

Re: [Starlink] "Interesting set of developments with Starlink. Musk says they will support "international aid orgs" in Gaza, Israel now says they will use "all available means" to stop SpaceX from doing so.

[David Lang]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2133 bytes --]

On Mon, 13 Nov 2023, Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink wrote:

> It has a Donate button, which seems to make it a site built by an 
> independent end user.  It is a great tool already!   With respect to the 
> starlink sats positions: celestrak might simply reflect an original data 
> which is made by space-track.org which is a US authority.  Or maybe not, 
> they dont say it.  I dont know.
>
> My question is how is the original data on space-track.org (or other 
> original source of sat position data) created: do they range the sats 
> (i.e. point lasers at them and wait for replies, radar, or similar) or 
> do the sats transmit their positions on a voluntary and cooperative basis?

It is in the interests of every country to avoid having satellties hit each 
other, which requires that everyone have accurate information on where existing 
satellites are. The US space command (or whatever their name is under the USSF 
now) tracks everything in orbit that they can (I thinkit's everything above 
~10cm)

companies coordinate with each other when they need to move satellites so that 
you don't have two satellites trying to avoid a collision both move in a way 
that make the collision more likely to happen.

There's even an International agreement (going back to the cold war between the 
US and USSR) that requires satellite launcher telemetry to be unencrypted so 
that everyone can monitor it.

so the orbits of everything (including spy satellites) is well known and not 
some deep secret.

> Another question is about which starlink sats are 'in-service' and 
> deliver service, and which not?  It is not only a matter of altitude.  
> The current websites telling 'in-service' or similar attributes, do not 
> seem to be related to starlink, and do not seem to take that data from 
> DISHYs.  They seem to be simply telling that if it is at a 550km 
> altitude then they're in service.

What would be the value in having a satellite in the proper orbit, using a 
orbital slot, but not in use? unless the satellite electronics have failed, they 
would use it (electronics do not wear out from use)

David Lang

Re: [Starlink] "Interesting set of developments with Starlink. Musk says they will support "international aid orgs" in Gaza, Israel now says they will use "all available means" to stop SpaceX from doing so.

[Alexandre Petrescu]

Le 13/11/2023 à 17:03, David Lang a écrit :
> On Mon, 13 Nov 2023, Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink wrote:
>
>> It has a Donate button, which seems to make it a site built by an 
>> independent end user.  It is a great tool already!   With respect to 
>> the starlink sats positions: celestrak might simply reflect an 
>> original data which is made by space-track.org which is a US 
>> authority.  Or maybe not, they dont say it.  I dont know.
>>
>> My question is how is the original data on space-track.org (or other 
>> original source of sat position data) created: do they range the sats 
>> (i.e. point lasers at them and wait for replies, radar, or similar) 
>> or do the sats transmit their positions on a voluntary and 
>> cooperative basis?
>
> It is in the interests of every country to avoid having satellties hit 
> each other, which requires that everyone have accurate information on 
> where existing satellites are. The US space command (or whatever their 
> name is under the USSF now) tracks everything in orbit that they can 
> (I thinkit's everything above ~10cm)

Fair enough, I agree with both statements.  But certainly they're not 
the only ones to track for the benefit of all, it is not the only 
publicly available original tracking data.  Ideally, one would have a 
single trackign authority and the tracking method - not only the 
tracking data - would be documented publicly.


>
> companies coordinate with each other when they need to move satellites 
> so that you don't have two satellites trying to avoid a collision both 
> move in a way that make the collision more likely to happen.
>
> There's even an International agreement (going back to the cold war 
> between the US and USSR) that requires satellite launcher telemetry to 
> be unencrypted so that everyone can monitor it.
Thanks, I'll have to  look that up.  I think I've seen publicly 
available tracking data of launchers of all sorts, but I'll have to dig 
it up again from the Internet.
>
> so the orbits of everything (including spy satellites) is well known 
> and not some deep secret.
Sure.  But plans are one thing and the implementation might be different.
>
>> Another question is about which starlink sats are 'in-service' and 
>> deliver service, and which not?  It is not only a matter of 
>> altitude.  The current websites telling 'in-service' or similar 
>> attributes, do not seem to be related to starlink, and do not seem to 
>> take that data from DISHYs.  They seem to be simply telling that if 
>> it is at a 550km altitude then they're in service.
>
> What would be the value in having a satellite in the proper orbit, 
> using a orbital slot, but not in use? unless the satellite electronics 
> have failed, they would use it (electronics do not wear out from use)

I agree with the question.  It makes sense.

But what is a 'proper' orbit, what altitude? Is one  sure that a 
starlink sat at 350km altitude for several weeks, if not months, is 
_not_ in service?  Maybe I'll have to go look at the ITU and FCC orbit 
altitude reservations for starlink, because probably that is the only 
data available.

Alex

>
> David Lang

Re: [Starlink] "Interesting set of developments with Starlink. Musk says they will support "international aid orgs" in Gaza, Israel now says they will use "all available means" to stop SpaceX from doing so.

[Alexandre Petrescu]

On the ham radio aspects: I thought ham radio use is restricted to those 
who would not emit political oppinion, but rather talk about how ham 
radio works.

In such a context, nobody would forbid ham radio.

Also, it is very easy to jam purposefully, but it is very hard to 
identify when one is under purposeful jam (or maybe it does not 
propagate because other natural reasons).  As such, it's hard to make 
claims about when and what is jammed.  These claims can only come from 
those who actually jam.  And then, it is hard to tell whether the 
jamming was successful.

About red cross and churches supporting those in need: it is a good 
statement, but not universal.  Both have some stories of not doing so, 
in particular during WWII.

For WWII jamming: radio equipment ('biscuits', among others; it's the 
equivalent of DISHYs today) were used by Resistants in France.  One 
could go to prison for that use.  German enemies would jam it at times, 
and at other times they'd triangulate the position with goniometers to 
find and punhish the emitter.

More recently, during Cold War, there is so much more to be said about 
jamming that an email is not enough :-)

Alex

Le 30/10/2023 à 06:56, Ulrich Speidel via Starlink a écrit :
>
> The main problem as it stands with Gaza would be to get Starlink 
> equipment in for the international organisations to use. Coverage 
> wouldn't be an issue, but power and bandwidth would be.
>
> It's a pretty dire situation. Palestinian friends of ours have had 
> extended family killed, the wife's mother is currently visiting here 
> and can't go back obviously - plus her apartment got flattened in her 
> absence early on. Then our friend's teenage kids from his previous 
> marriage got buried under rubble when their mother's place got 
> flattened, and that was just up to last week. I really need to ask him 
> what's happened since. They came here because they were sick of Hamas.
>
> On the ham radio side, I helped a bit with band watch for MARS 
> (military affiliated amateur radio system) during the first Gulf War 
> when the local US garrison (Old Ironsides) got sent from Germany to 
> Saudi Arabia. A lot of them found out the hard way that if you have a 
> bank account in Germany and you're on deployment, your significant 
> other doesn't automatically get access to it like apparently they do 
> in the US, and the army didn't exactly think that it was their 
> problem, either. Got to listen to a lot of that. First world problems 
> compared to Gaza, though.
>
> On 30/10/2023 5:32 pm, Joe Hamelin via Starlink wrote:
>> The US did shut down ham radio during WW2.
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 9:27 AM Dave Taht via Starlink 
>> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>>     I think that the internet should stay up, connecting people to
>>     people,
>>     through all the conflicts we may ever have. The mails kept running -
>>     although censored - all through world war two - the red cross,
>>     allowed
>>     by all sides, to keep it's relief missions running, the churches
>>     (mostly) doing their job to console the weary...
>>
>>     Many other orgs, like the ITU, and the IETF, are committed to the
>>     continued free exchange of information, no matter what.
>>
>>     https://www.itu.int/en/about/Pages/default.aspx
>>
>>     I am happy to see a worldwide ISP committed to the same principles.
>>
>>     On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 9:07 AM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
>>     Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>     >
>>     > ➔➔https://twitter.com/dburbach/status/1718638348812595660
>>     >
>>     > --
>>     > Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com
>>     > living as The Truth is True
>>     >
>>     > _______________________________________________
>>     > Starlink mailing list
>>     > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>     > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>
>>
>>
>>     -- 
>>     Oct 30:
>>     https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
>>     Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     Starlink mailing list
>>     Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>     https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> --
>> Joe Hamelin, W7COM, Tulalip, WA, 360-474-7474
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>
> -- 
> ****************************************************************
> Dr. Ulrich Speidel
>
> School of Computer Science
>
> Room 303S.594 (City Campus)
>
> The University of Auckland
> u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz  
> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/
> ****************************************************************
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

Re: [Starlink] "Interesting set of developments with Starlink. Musk says they will support "international aid orgs" in Gaza, Israel now says they will use "all available means" to stop SpaceX from doing so.

[Ulrich Speidel]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 7435 bytes --]

Ham radio (if we're talking shortwave HF here) is easily jammed due to 
the lack of directionality of the antennas in use (a consequence of the 
large wavelengths, which are between about 6 and 160 m). That is, your 
receiver picks up signals from pretty much anywhere with only a slight 
preference for the preferred direction. This is different for Starlink, 
whose wavelengths are below 3 cm, allowing for very compact and very 
directional antennas.

Think of jamming as blinding someone who is trying to observe a target 
that is transmitting light signals to them. If that someone looks at the 
target with their eyes, it's easy to jam that as long as you can hit the 
eyes from any direction. If they are looking at the target with 
binoculars, you have to get in front of the binoculars to have a chance 
to jam.

Amateur radio has been used for humanitarian relief for yonks, and on 
some occasions also for a bit more than just that, although that's 
frowned upon. But I don't think anyone would send radio inspectors into 
Gaza right now, and I'm not sure that the ham operators of the Arab 
world and elsewhere would necessarily desist from passing on messages of 
all sorts.

On 31/10/2023 1:54 am, Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink wrote:
> On the ham radio aspects: I thought ham radio use is restricted to those
> who would not emit political oppinion, but rather talk about how ham
> radio works.
>
> In such a context, nobody would forbid ham radio.
>
> Also, it is very easy to jam purposefully, but it is very hard to
> identify when one is under purposeful jam (or maybe it does not
> propagate because other natural reasons).  As such, it's hard to make
> claims about when and what is jammed.  These claims can only come from
> those who actually jam.  And then, it is hard to tell whether the
> jamming was successful.
>
> About red cross and churches supporting those in need: it is a good
> statement, but not universal.  Both have some stories of not doing so,
> in particular during WWII.
>
> For WWII jamming: radio equipment ('biscuits', among others; it's the
> equivalent of DISHYs today) were used by Resistants in France. One
> could go to prison for that use.  German enemies would jam it at times,
> and at other times they'd triangulate the position with goniometers to
> find and punhish the emitter.
>
> More recently, during Cold War, there is so much more to be said about
> jamming that an email is not enough :-)
>
> Alex
>
> Le 30/10/2023 à 06:56, Ulrich Speidel via Starlink a écrit :
> >
> > The main problem as it stands with Gaza would be to get Starlink
> > equipment in for the international organisations to use. Coverage
> > wouldn't be an issue, but power and bandwidth would be.
> >
> > It's a pretty dire situation. Palestinian friends of ours have had
> > extended family killed, the wife's mother is currently visiting here
> > and can't go back obviously - plus her apartment got flattened in her
> > absence early on. Then our friend's teenage kids from his previous
> > marriage got buried under rubble when their mother's place got
> > flattened, and that was just up to last week. I really need to ask him
> > what's happened since. They came here because they were sick of Hamas.
> >
> > On the ham radio side, I helped a bit with band watch for MARS
> > (military affiliated amateur radio system) during the first Gulf War
> > when the local US garrison (Old Ironsides) got sent from Germany to
> > Saudi Arabia. A lot of them found out the hard way that if you have a
> > bank account in Germany and you're on deployment, your significant
> > other doesn't automatically get access to it like apparently they do
> > in the US, and the army didn't exactly think that it was their
> > problem, either. Got to listen to a lot of that. First world problems
> > compared to Gaza, though.
> >
> > On 30/10/2023 5:32 pm, Joe Hamelin via Starlink wrote:
> >> The US did shut down ham radio during WW2.
> >>
> >> On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 9:27 AM Dave Taht via Starlink
> >> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> I think that the internet should stay up, connecting people to
> >> people,
> >> through all the conflicts we may ever have. The mails kept running -
> >> although censored - all through world war two - the red cross,
> >> allowed
> >> by all sides, to keep it's relief missions running, the churches
> >> (mostly) doing their job to console the weary...
> >>
> >> Many other orgs, like the ITU, and the IETF, are committed to the
> >> continued free exchange of information, no matter what.
> >>
> >> https://www.itu.int/en/about/Pages/default.aspx 
> <https://www.itu.int/en/about/Pages/default.aspx>
> >>
> >> I am happy to see a worldwide ISP committed to the same principles.
> >>
> >> On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 9:07 AM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
> >> Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > ➔➔https://twitter.com/dburbach/status/1718638348812595660 
> <https://twitter.com/dburbach/status/1718638348812595660>
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com
> >> > living as The Truth is True
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Starlink mailing list
> >> > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink 
> <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Oct 30:
> >> 
> https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html 
> <https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html>
> >> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Starlink mailing list
> >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink 
> <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> --
> >> Joe Hamelin, W7COM, Tulalip, WA, 360-474-7474
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Starlink mailing list
> >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink 
> <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink>
> >>
> > --
> > ****************************************************************
> > Dr. Ulrich Speidel
> >
> > School of Computer Science
> >
> > Room 303S.594 (City Campus)
> >
> > The University of Auckland
> > u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz
> > http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ 
> <http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich>
> > ****************************************************************
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Starlink mailing list
> > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink 
> <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink 
> <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink>

-- 
****************************************************************
Dr. Ulrich Speidel

School of Computer Science

Room 303S.594 (City Campus)

The University of Auckland
u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz  
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/
****************************************************************



[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 11035 bytes --]

Re: [Starlink] "Interesting set of developments with Starlink. Musk says they will support "international aid orgs" in Gaza, Israel now says they will use "all available means" to stop SpaceX from doing so.

[Alexandre Petrescu]

Le 30/10/2023 à 14:10, Ulrich Speidel via Starlink a écrit :
>
> Ham radio (if we're talking shortwave HF here) is easily jammed due to 
> the lack of directionality of the antennas in use (a consequence of 
> the large wavelengths, which are between about 6 and 160 m). That is, 
> your receiver picks up signals from pretty much anywhere with only a 
> slight preference for the preferred direction. This is different for 
> Starlink, whose wavelengths are below 3 cm, allowing for very compact 
> and very directional antennas.
>
> Think of jamming as blinding someone who is trying to observe a target 
> that is transmitting light signals to them. If that someone looks at 
> the target with their eyes, it's easy to jam that as long as you can 
> hit the eyes from any direction. If they are looking at the target 
> with binoculars, you have to get in front of the binoculars to have a 
> chance to jam.
>
It's a great analogy.

Alex


> Amateur radio has been used for humanitarian relief for yonks, and on 
> some occasions also for a bit more than just that, although that's 
> frowned upon. But I don't think anyone would send radio inspectors 
> into Gaza right now, and I'm not sure that the ham operators of the 
> Arab world and elsewhere would necessarily desist from passing on 
> messages of all sorts.
>

> On 31/10/2023 1:54 am, Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink wrote:
>> On the ham radio aspects: I thought ham radio use is restricted to those
>> who would not emit political oppinion, but rather talk about how ham
>> radio works.
>>
>> In such a context, nobody would forbid ham radio.
>>
>> Also, it is very easy to jam purposefully, but it is very hard to
>> identify when one is under purposeful jam (or maybe it does not
>> propagate because other natural reasons).  As such, it's hard to make
>> claims about when and what is jammed.  These claims can only come from
>> those who actually jam.  And then, it is hard to tell whether the
>> jamming was successful.
>>
>> About red cross and churches supporting those in need: it is a good
>> statement, but not universal.  Both have some stories of not doing so,
>> in particular during WWII.
>>
>> For WWII jamming: radio equipment ('biscuits', among others; it's the
>> equivalent of DISHYs today) were used by Resistants in France. One
>> could go to prison for that use.  German enemies would jam it at times,
>> and at other times they'd triangulate the position with goniometers to
>> find and punhish the emitter.
>>
>> More recently, during Cold War, there is so much more to be said about
>> jamming that an email is not enough :-)
>>
>> Alex
>>
>> Le 30/10/2023 à 06:56, Ulrich Speidel via Starlink a écrit :
>> >
>> > The main problem as it stands with Gaza would be to get Starlink
>> > equipment in for the international organisations to use. Coverage
>> > wouldn't be an issue, but power and bandwidth would be.
>> >
>> > It's a pretty dire situation. Palestinian friends of ours have had
>> > extended family killed, the wife's mother is currently visiting here
>> > and can't go back obviously - plus her apartment got flattened in her
>> > absence early on. Then our friend's teenage kids from his previous
>> > marriage got buried under rubble when their mother's place got
>> > flattened, and that was just up to last week. I really need to ask him
>> > what's happened since. They came here because they were sick of Hamas.
>> >
>> > On the ham radio side, I helped a bit with band watch for MARS
>> > (military affiliated amateur radio system) during the first Gulf War
>> > when the local US garrison (Old Ironsides) got sent from Germany to
>> > Saudi Arabia. A lot of them found out the hard way that if you have a
>> > bank account in Germany and you're on deployment, your significant
>> > other doesn't automatically get access to it like apparently they do
>> > in the US, and the army didn't exactly think that it was their
>> > problem, either. Got to listen to a lot of that. First world problems
>> > compared to Gaza, though.
>> >
>> > On 30/10/2023 5:32 pm, Joe Hamelin via Starlink wrote:
>> >> The US did shut down ham radio during WW2.
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 9:27 AM Dave Taht via Starlink
>> >> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I think that the internet should stay up, connecting people to
>> >> people,
>> >> through all the conflicts we may ever have. The mails kept running -
>> >> although censored - all through world war two - the red cross,
>> >> allowed
>> >> by all sides, to keep it's relief missions running, the churches
>> >> (mostly) doing their job to console the weary...
>> >>
>> >> Many other orgs, like the ITU, and the IETF, are committed to the
>> >> continued free exchange of information, no matter what.
>> >>
>> >> https://www.itu.int/en/about/Pages/default.aspx
>> >>
>> >> I am happy to see a worldwide ISP committed to the same principles.
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 9:07 AM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
>> >> Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > ➔➔https://twitter.com/dburbach/status/1718638348812595660
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com
>> >> > living as The Truth is True
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > Starlink mailing list
>> >> > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Oct 30:
>> >> https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
>> >> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Starlink mailing list
>> >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> --
>> >> Joe Hamelin, W7COM, Tulalip, WA, 360-474-7474
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Starlink mailing list
>> >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>> >>
>> > --
>> > ****************************************************************
>> > Dr. Ulrich Speidel
>> >
>> > School of Computer Science
>> >
>> > Room 303S.594 (City Campus)
>> >
>> > The University of Auckland
>> > u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz
>> > http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/
>> > ****************************************************************
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Starlink mailing list
>> > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
> -- 
> ****************************************************************
> Dr. Ulrich Speidel
>
> School of Computer Science
>
> Room 303S.594 (City Campus)
>
> The University of Auckland
> u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz  
> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/
> ****************************************************************
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

Re: [Starlink] "Interesting set of developments with Starlink. Musk says they will support "international aid orgs" in Gaza, Israel now says they will use "all available means" to stop SpaceX from doing so.

[Dave Taht]

On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 9:33 PM Joe Hamelin <nethead@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The US did shut down ham radio during WW2.

I think you could elaborate on that? We did not jam the ham signals,
at least, as that would be impossible.  Well every country tried to
stop unauthorized broadcasts... HUFFDUFF developed for detecting that
in part - and every country also attempted to insert spies with some
radio capability, also.

Think of that in something of this context, in perhaps a hidden story:

https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/pirate-iptv-network-in-austria-dismantled-and-174-million-seized/

Anyway we can bounce signals off of just about everything now, I do
not think the state of the art in jamming is up to the state of the
art in spread signal tech - as seemingly validated by starlink so far
-  but localization of a transmitter is straightforward all the way to
orbit now.


>
> On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 9:27 AM Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>> I think that the internet should stay up, connecting people to people,
>> through all the conflicts we may ever have. The mails kept running -
>> although censored - all through world war two - the red cross, allowed
>> by all sides, to keep it's relief missions running, the churches
>> (mostly) doing their job to console the weary...
>>
>> Many other orgs, like the ITU, and the IETF, are committed to the
>> continued free exchange of information, no matter what.
>>
>> https://www.itu.int/en/about/Pages/default.aspx
>>
>> I am happy to see a worldwide ISP committed to the same principles.
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 9:07 AM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
>> Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > ➔➔https://twitter.com/dburbach/status/1718638348812595660
>> >
>> > --
>> > Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com
>> > living as The Truth is True
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Starlink mailing list
>> > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
>> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>
>
>
> --
> --
> Joe Hamelin, W7COM, Tulalip, WA, 360-474-7474



-- 
Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos

Re: [Starlink] "Interesting set of developments with Starlink. Musk says they will support "international aid orgs" in Gaza, Israel now says they will use "all available means" to stop SpaceX from doing so.

[Daniel AJ Sokolov]

On 2023-10-29 at 09:26, Dave Taht via Starlink wrote:
> I think that the internet should stay up, connecting people to people,
> through all the conflicts we may ever have.

Indeed, if the internet had stayed up, Israel and Gaza would not be in 
the situation they are today.

The first thing the Hamas attacked were not people, or bridges, but the 
communication infrastructure of the villages. That enabled the Hamas to 
kill some 1400 people, mostly civilians, and take hundreds of hostages, 
mostly civilians, in a few hours. Without communications, the IDF was 
deaf and blind.

(Why did they not have or use analogue radios?)

However, if we could create an international rule to not disable 
communications, and then get terrorist groups like the Hamas to obey it, 
we could probably prevent terrorist groups like the Hamas from targeting 
civilians, taking civilians as hostages, using hospitals and schools as 
shields, etc. All of that is already outlawed.

So don't hold your breath. Communications will generally be one of the 
first targets in any armed conflict. It has been like that for a very 
long time.

There is an irony in this: Wasn't the internet a military project meant 
to survive armageddon?

BR
Daniel AJ

[Starlink] [off-topic] "Interesting set of developments with Starlink. Musk says they will support "international aid orgs" in Gaza, Israel now says they will use "all available means" to stop SpaceX from doing so.

[Dave Collier-Brown]

On 10/30/23 13:46, Daniel AJ Sokolov via Starlink wrote:
> There is an irony in this: Wasn't the internet a military project
> meant to survive armageddon?

Not exactly, but it was funded from an ARPA project that investigated
the ability of packet protocols to route around the loss of multiple
links.  The specific loss ARPA was talking about was "link blown up by
an atom bomb" (;-))

I think it's time for governments to start thinking like ARPA again.

--dave

--
David Collier-Brown,         | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com |              -- Mark Twain


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Re: [Starlink] "Interesting set of developments with Starlink. Musk says they will support "international aid orgs" in Gaza, Israel now says they will use "all available means" to stop SpaceX from doing so.

[Alexandre Petrescu]

Le 30/10/2023 à 18:46, Daniel AJ Sokolov via Starlink a écrit :
> On 2023-10-29 at 09:26, Dave Taht via Starlink wrote:
> [...]
> There is an irony in this: Wasn't the internet a military project 
> meant to survive armageddon?

This is an excellent point, indeed.

We want an originally-military technology to be delivered precisely to 
civilians only, and not mistake it.

It is a challenge.

Alex

Re: [Starlink] "Interesting set of developments with Starlink. Musk says they will support "international aid orgs" in Gaza, Israel now says they will use "all available means" to stop SpaceX from doing so.

[Frantisek Borsik]

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All Souls' Day is coming here in Central Europe (not sure about the
observance in the rest of Europe) and Halloween is almost here - so I have
visited cemeteries of my ancestors in Slovakia. And as we were there, my
parents told us stories from WWII and the Iron Curtain era, both related to
HAMs.

My great great grand father's family in Northern Slovakia, close to Poland,
was giving a shelter and help to partisan groups during Slovak National
Uprising <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovak_National_Uprising> in the
WWII and once Germans find them in their house, during the raid. They got
the whole family lined-up and firing squad ready - if there wouldn't be for
a double agent in their ranks that have managed to stop it, my great grand
mother, their only child, wouldn't be alive. Sadly, I was only a teenager
when she passed away in 2000 and so I didn't managed to talk with her
enough about those horrible days of WWII.

Later on, her son (my grand father) was accused of using HAM to talk to the
West in the early 60's, after the communist take over of Czechoslovakia
(1948). Czechoslovak counterpart of KGB, so called StB
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StB> (Czechoslovak state security service)
was investigating him - as a result, my father was banned from studying at
the university and so on.
(Side note: that KGB was not the worst of the secret services behind the
Iron Curtain - Stasi in the East Germany was in many cases calmed down by
KGB, even the number of agents and informants at Stasi were higher than the
"rookie numbers" at KGB, and StB was also in some aspects worse than KGB.)

On my mother' side, my great grand father left to the US and Canada in the
early 30s. He worked in various mines, digging coal. After WWII, he has
returned home...and then in 1948, fucking communist took everything from
him and he died from a heart attack when it happened.

I hope that Gaza/Palestine and Israel situation will get sorted out rather
soon. Both countries have all the rights to existence and the world need
peace and cooperation, not WWIII.

Sending you all a song called "You, me and the World War Three"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdV9O-PDXMI> and hoping for the best for
the world.

All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik



https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com


On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 7:48 PM Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink <
starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

>
> Le 30/10/2023 à 18:46, Daniel AJ Sokolov via Starlink a écrit :
> > On 2023-10-29 at 09:26, Dave Taht via Starlink wrote:
> > [...]
> > There is an irony in this: Wasn't the internet a military project
> > meant to survive armageddon?
>
> This is an excellent point, indeed.
>
> We want an originally-military technology to be delivered precisely to
> civilians only, and not mistake it.
>
> It is a challenge.
>
> Alex
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>

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