From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from bosmailout01.eigbox.net (bosmailout01.eigbox.net [66.96.186.1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0DB5E3B29D for ; Wed, 4 Jan 2023 22:11:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.20.15.8] (helo=bosmailscan08.eigbox.net) by bosmailout01.eigbox.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1pDGfH-0002wc-GH for starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net; Wed, 04 Jan 2023 22:11:35 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=alum.mit.edu; s=dkim; h=Sender:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date: Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Cc:To:From:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=yDLLLFUyvqj6laa0nz/U0Fj/4xT5PamciUzWf6uA3UM=; b=3WBxoWv+EZKCFWn5x7qusW27ow ajd+OOYB/ZeJKS6V9NagmHEB5qYlE5ETQj+WzZpdM1rHaPBkZSj0vbP5lbYraMEE4c40OUwDI6RM2 tmbIUVt/YVjt1w+pEHacQQNmUNOP2blLjYgjypeEIHpgQgWALmefUmiZRsbzKmGaROXWSPybeeg/X i7nTAHFSEntNhcWEFiEcWHnAMESgHA3hYjbM7oEAc/pAd9zihW4PcsuN+3gevM/5ZV8WmTX5P8qgY oavW4Womx5YI3FjZ3SfVQNtx439zS1HveJzh8hB+gyUb0dJT3eKcgPI0joPpnnPCtpryAyzzH6bWh T1KaC+sQ==; Received: from [10.115.3.32] (helo=bosimpout12) by bosmailscan08.eigbox.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1pDGfH-0003Aa-5W for starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net; Wed, 04 Jan 2023 22:11:35 -0500 Received: from bosauthsmtp19.yourhostingaccount.com ([10.20.18.19]) by bosimpout12 with id 4rBY290010QhFXN01rBbwn; Wed, 04 Jan 2023 22:11:35 -0500 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=d4VuNSrE c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=9UqFsMnAB6EOkiq4MrOclQ==:117 a=nIEF4cAZMyOU5h9mcfI6lg==:17 a=RvmDmJFTN0MA:10 a=6ulraYUaiNAA:10 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=kurRqvosAAAA:8 a=qNp_YjjoAAAA:8 a=9z4KhwH7AAAA:8 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=EG7W4yiQAAAA:8 a=jU4qhlNgAAAA:8 a=4vu3DYkXAAAA:8 a=PiY-PwNtaNTlVeIIPXMA:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=vIdWaGX-52MMGpulJu0A:9 a=2UinbbEEHT--A6-X:21 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=kbxRQ_lfPIoQnHsAj2-A:22 a=GPpaJ-c28cifDO-wfJs0:22 a=9x6Z1owHLtSA86P_KKuR:22 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 a=r8UTCfAdEEtSU5LvgirL:22 Received: from c-67-180-86-211.hsd1.ca.comcast.net ([67.180.86.211]:57017 helo=SRA6) by bosauthsmtp19.eigbox.net with esmtpa (Exim) id 1pDGfD-0003QB-J2; Wed, 04 Jan 2023 22:11:31 -0500 Reply-To: From: "Dick Roy" To: "'Dave Collier-Brown'" Cc: References: <845161E4-474C-44A9-92D4-1702748A3DA1@jonathanfoulkes.com> <82cfa31b-3694-7f6f-3f29-8de77559dd6f@indexexchange.com> In-Reply-To: <82cfa31b-3694-7f6f-3f29-8de77559dd6f@indexexchange.com> Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2023 19:11:28 -0800 Organization: SRA Message-ID: <15EBCC5BF2474AAB82C050259229B5FB@SRA6> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_04D5_01D92070.5AF175A0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AdkgsDUFi3n4EeVvR46EmnXqr//jMAAAXxBw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE X-EN-UserInfo: f809475445fb8041985048e338e1a001:931c98230c6409dcc37fa7e93b490c27 X-EN-AuthUser: dickroy@intellicommunications.com Sender: "Dick Roy" X-EN-OrigIP: 67.180.86.211 X-EN-OrigHost: c-67-180-86-211.hsd1.ca.comcast.net Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] the grinch meets cloudflare's christmas present X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2023 03:11:36 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_04D5_01D92070.5AF175A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 =20 _____ =20 From: Starlink [mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On Behalf = Of Dave Collier-Brown via Starlink Sent: Wednesday, January 4, 2023 6:48 PM To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] the grinch meets cloudflare's christmas present =20 I think using "speed" for "the inverse of delay" is pretty normal = English, if technically erroneous when speaking nerd or physicist. [RR] I=92ve not heard of that usage before. The units aren=92t = commensurate either.=20 Using it for volume? Arguably more like fraudulent... [RR] I don=92t think that was Bob=92s intent. I think =93load volume=94 = was meant to be a metaphor for =93number of bits/bytes=94 being transported (=93by = the semi=94). =20 That said, aren=92t users these days educated on =93gigs=94 which they = intuitively understand to be Gigabits per second (or Gbps)? Oddly enough, that is = an expression of =93data/information/communication rate=94 in the = appropriate units with the nominal technically correct meaning. =20 RR --dave On 1/4/23 18:54, Bruce Perens via Starlink wrote: On the other hand, we would like to be comprehensible to normal users, especially when we want them to press their providers to deal with bufferbloat. Differences like speed and rate would go right over their heads. =20 On Wed, Jan 4, 2023 at 1:16 PM Ulrich Speidel via Starlink wrote: The use of the term "speed" in communications used to be restricted to = the speed of light (or whatever propagation speed one happened to be dealing with. Everything else was a "rate". Maybe I'm old-fashioned but I think talking about "speed tests" muddies the waters rather a lot. =20 --=20 ****************************************************************=20 Dr. Ulrich Speidel=20 Department of Computer Science=20 Room 303S.594 Ph: (+64-9)-373-7599 ext. 85282=20 The University of Auckland=20 u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ =20 ****************************************************************=20 _____ =20 From: Starlink on behalf of rjmcmahon via Starlink Sent: Thursday, January 5, 2023 9:02 AM To: jf@jonathanfoulkes.com Cc: Cake List ; IETF IPPM WG = ; libreqos ; Dave Taht via Starlink ; Rpm ; bloat Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] the grinch meets cloudflare's christmas present=20 =20 Curious to why people keep calling capacity tests speed tests? A semi at = 55 mph isn't faster than a porsche at 141 mph because its load volume is = larger. Bob > HNY Dave and all the rest, >=20 > Great to see yet another capacity test add latency metrics to the > results. This one looks like a good start. >=20 > Results from my Windstream DOCSIS 3.1 line (3.1 on download only, up > is 3.0) Gigabit down / 35Mbps up provisioning. Using an IQrouter Pro > (an i5 x86) with Cake set for 710/31 as this ISP can=92t deliver > reliable low-latency unless you shave a good bit off the targets. My > local loop is pretty congested. >=20 > Here=92s the latest Cloudflare test: >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > And an Ookla test run just afterward: >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > They are definitely both in the ballpark and correspond to other tests > run from the router itself or my (wired) MacBook Pro. >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > Jonathan >=20 >=20 >> On Jan 4, 2023, at 12:26 PM, Dave Taht via Rpm=20 >> wrote: >>=20 >> Please try the new, the shiny, the really wonderful test here: >> https://speed.cloudflare.com/ =20 >>=20 >> I would really appreciate some independent verification of >> measurements using this tool. In my brief experiments it appears - as >> all the commercial tools to date - to dramatically understate the >> bufferbloat, on my LTE, (and my starlink terminal is out being >> hacked^H^H^H^H^H^Hworked on, so I can't measure that) >>=20 >> My test of their test reports 223ms 5G latency under load , where >> flent reports over 2seconds. See comparison attached. >>=20 >> My guess is that this otherwise lovely new tool, like too many, >> doesn't run for long enough. Admittedly, most web objects (their >> target market) are small, and so long as they remain small and not >> heavily pipelined this test is a very good start... but I'm pretty >> sure cloudflare is used for bigger uploads and downloads than that. >> There's no way to change the test to run longer either. >>=20 >> I'd love to get some results from other networks (compared as usual = to >> flent), especially ones with cake on it. I'd love to know if they >> measured more minimum rtts that can be obtained with fq_codel or = cake, >> correctly. >>=20 >> Love Always, >> The Grinch >>=20 >> -- >> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: >> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-698136666= 560 7352320-FXtz >> Dave T=E4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >> _______________= ___ _____________________________ >> Rpm mailing list >> Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Rpm mailing list > Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm _______________________________________________ Starlink mailing list Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink _______________________________________________ Starlink mailing list Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink =20 --=20 Bruce Perens K6BP _______________________________________________ Starlink mailing list Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink --=20 David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com | -- Mark Twain =20 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER : This telecommunication, = including any and all attachments, contains confidential information intended only = for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any dissemination, distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly prohibited and is not a waiver of confidentiality. If you have received this telecommunication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return electronic mail and = delete the message from your inbox and deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not constitute an express or implied agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means, nor does it constitute a = contract offer, a contract amendment or an acceptance of a contract offer. = Contract terms contained in this telecommunication are subject to legal review = and the completion of formal documentation and are not binding until same is confirmed in writing and has been signed by an authorized signatory. ------=_NextPart_000_04D5_01D92070.5AF175A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

 

From: = Starlink [mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On Behalf Of Dave = Collier-Brown via Starlink
Sent: Wednesday, January = 4, 2023 6:48 PM
To: = starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
Subject: Re: [Starlink] = [Rpm] the grinch meets cloudflare's christmas present

 

I think using "speed" for "the inverse of delay" is pretty = normal English, if technically erroneous when speaking nerd or = physicist.

[RR] = I’ve not heard of that usage before. =A0The units aren’t commensurate = either.

Using it for volume? Arguably more like = fraudulent...

[RR] I = don’t think that was Bob’s intent. =A0I think “load volume” = was meant to be a metaphor for “number of bits/bytes” being = transported (“by the semi”).=A0

That = said, aren’t users these days educated on “gigs” which they intuitively understand to be Gigabits per second (or Gbps)? =A0Oddly = enough, that is an expression of “data/information/communication rate” in = the appropriate units with the nominal technically correct meaning. = =A0

RR

--dave

On 1/4/23 18:54, Bruce Perens via Starlink = wrote:

On the other hand, we would like to be comprehensible to normal = users, especially when we want them to press their providers to deal with = bufferbloat. Differences like speed and rate would go right over their = heads.

 

On Wed, Jan 4, 2023 at 1:16 PM Ulrich Speidel via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> = wrote:

The use of the term "speed" in communications used to be = restricted to the speed of light (or whatever propagation speed one happened to be = dealing with. Everything else was a "rate". Maybe I'm old-fashioned = but I think talking about "speed tests" muddies the waters rather a = lot.

 

-- 
****************************************************************
Dr. Ulrich Speidel

Department of Computer Science

Room 303S.594
Ph: (+64-9)-373-7599 ext. 85282

The University of Auckland
u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/
**************************************************************** =

From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on = behalf of rjmcmahon via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Sent: Thursday, January = 5, 2023 9:02 AM
To: jf@jonathanfoulkes.com <jf@jonathanfoulkes.com>
Cc: Cake List <cake@lists.bufferbloat.net>; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>; libreqos <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net>; Dave Taht = via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; Rpm = <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net>; bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: Re: [Starlink] = [Rpm] the grinch meets cloudflare's christmas present =

 

Curious to why people keep calling capacity tests speed tests? A = semi at
55 mph isn't faster than a porsche at 141 mph because its load volume is =
larger.

Bob
> HNY Dave and all the rest,
>
> Great to see yet another capacity test add latency metrics to = the
> results. This one looks like a good start.
>
> Results from my Windstream DOCSIS 3.1 line (3.1 on download only, = up
> is 3.0) Gigabit down / 35Mbps up provisioning. Using an IQrouter = Pro
> (an i5 x86) with Cake set for 710/31 as this ISP can’t = deliver
> reliable low-latency unless you shave a good bit off the targets. = My
> local loop is pretty congested.
>
> Here’s the latest Cloudflare test:
>
>
>
>
> And an Ookla test run just afterward:
>
>
>
>
> They are definitely both in the ballpark and correspond to other = tests
> run from the router itself or my (wired) MacBook Pro.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>> On Jan 4, 2023, at 12:26 PM, Dave Taht via Rpm
>> <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>> Please try the new, the shiny, the really wonderful test = here:
>> https://speed.cloudflare.com/
>>
>> I would really appreciate some independent verification of
>> measurements using this tool. In my brief experiments it = appears - as
>> all the commercial tools to date - to dramatically understate = the
>> bufferbloat, on my LTE, (and my starlink terminal is out = being
>> hacked^H^H^H^H^H^Hworked on, so I can't measure that)
>>
>> My test of their test reports 223ms 5G latency under load , = where
>> flent reports over 2seconds. See comparison attached.
>>
>> My guess is that this otherwise lovely new tool, like too = many,
>> doesn't run for long enough. Admittedly, most web objects = (their
>> target market) are small, and so long as they remain small and = not
>> heavily pipelined this test is a very good start... but I'm = pretty
>> sure cloudflare is used for bigger uploads and downloads than = that.
>> There's no way to change the test to run longer either.
>>
>> I'd love to get some results from other networks (compared as = usual to
>> flent), especially ones with cake on it. I'd love to know if = they
>> measured more minimum rtts that can be obtained with fq_codel = or cake,
>> correctly.
>>
>> Love Always,
>> The Grinch
>>
>> --
>> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would = work:
>> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-= song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz
>> Dave T=E4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>> <image.png><tcp_nup-2023-01-04T090937.211620.LTE.flent.gz>___= ____________________________________________
>> Rpm mailing list
>> Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm
= >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rpm mailing list
> Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm
= _______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink


 

--

Bruce Perens K6BP



______________________________________________=
_
Starlink =
mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat=
.net
https://lists.bu=
fferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
-- 
David =
Collier-Brown,=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 | Always do right. This will =
gratify
System =
Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the =
rest
dave.collier-brown@i=
ndexexchange.com |=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 -- Mark =
Twain

 

CONFIDENTIALITY= NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER : This telecommunication, including any = and all attachments, contains confidential information intended only for the = person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any dissemination, distribution, copying or = disclosure is strictly prohibited and is not a waiver of confidentiality. If you = have received this telecommunication in error, please notify the sender = immediately by return electronic mail and delete the message from your inbox and = deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not constitute an express or = implied agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means, nor does it = constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment or an acceptance of a contract = offer. Contract terms contained in this telecommunication are subject to legal = review and the completion of formal documentation and are not binding until = same is confirmed in writing and has been signed by an authorized = signatory.

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